25 years old and deep in debt

[Valmy]

Okay not joking around now---Do you guys seriously think that 25% of women are raped every year?

Wait every year?  Like 1 out of every 4 females over 18 is raped every single year?  Um...no.

[merithyn]

Okay not joking around now---Do you guys seriously think that 25% of women are raped every year?

I think that 25% of women have been sexually assaulted and/or raped. Do I believe that that number is accurate on a yearly basis? No. Do I believe that number overall? Yes, at least. Annecdotally, I'd guess it to be more like 33% of women in the US have been sexually assaulted and/or raped.

That being said, I also believe that more men are sexually assaulted and/or raped than is reported, as well. Given the way women are treated, I doubt men are willing to step up and admit when it happens to them, either.

[Barrister]

Okay not joking around now---Do you guys seriously think that 25% of women are raped every year?

Where do you get the "every year" part from?

I have no trouble believing 25% of women are the victim of a major sexual assault during their lifetime.

[Valmy]

I think that 25% of women have been sexually assaulted and/or raped. Do I believe that that number is accurate on a yearly basis? No. Do I believe that number overall? Yes, at least. Annecdotally, I'd guess it to be more like 33% of women in the US have been sexually assaulted and/or raped.

Yeah this I can buy.  And from the few women close enough to me this discussion has been had it is exactly 33%.  Neither my wife or sister were raped but my wife was.

[merithyn]

Well I guess my question is what do we do about it?  I don't think having hugely draconian sex offender policies is really helping that much.

Or is it?  I guess we would have to look at different jurisdictions.  Somebody clearly thinks they do.

How about we start by teaching young men and women in Sex Ed what "no" can look like, what "compromised mental ability to give permission" looks like, and what affect rape can have on a person and their families? Then, we start working on getting rid of the idea that the victim could ever "ask for it". Now, let's seriously get rid of the whole "gift from God" pregnancy fiasco.

That's where I would start, anyway.

[merithyn]

Yeah this I can buy.  And from the few women close enough to me this discussion has been had it is exactly 33%.  Neither my wife or sister were raped but my wife was.

My sample size is a bit larger, as you can imagine, and I would put it closer to 35-40% based on that. Most of the time, it's a date-rape situation.

[Valmy]

How about we start by teaching young men and women in Sex Ed what "no" can look like, what "compromised mental ability to give permission" looks like, and what affect rape can have on a person and their families? Then, we start working on getting rid of the idea that the victim could ever "ask for it". Now, let's seriously get rid of the whole "gift from God" pregnancy fiasco.

That's where I would start, anyway.

Yeah I have to say they hammered the 'no means no' thing into us pretty well.  But they never mentioned anything about how different it is when everybody is drunk.

[MadImmortalMan]

How about we start by teaching young men and women in Sex Ed what "no" can look like, what "compromised mental ability to give permission" looks like, and what affect rape can have on a person and their families? Then, we start working on getting rid of the idea that the victim could ever "ask for it". Now, let's seriously get rid of the whole "gift from God" pregnancy fiasco.

That's where I would start, anyway.

Yeah I have to say they hammered the 'no means no' thing into us pretty well.  But they never mentioned anything about how different it is when everybody is drunk.

That's a difficult thing. You'd have to start a campaign about when yes means no. I don't mean that in a jerky way, it's just that people do things when drunk that they otherwise wouldn't.

FWIW, Amherst Mass has about 20 rape convictions a year.

I agree we're already very conditioned against it--which is why it's very difficult to believe.

[Neil]

Yeah, I don't feel especially bad for you, since the alternative to 'women being treated as second-class citizens' is 'men going to jail and having to deal with scarlet letter sex offender laws on a woman's sayso'.

There's a fairly large excluded middle ground there.

If Meri feels that the presumption of innocence turns women into second-class citizens, then there really isn't much of a middle ground at all.

[Barrister]

How about we start by teaching young men and women in Sex Ed what "no" can look like, what "compromised mental ability to give permission" looks like, and what affect rape can have on a person and their families? Then, we start working on getting rid of the idea that the victim could ever "ask for it". Now, let's seriously get rid of the whole "gift from God" pregnancy fiasco.

That's where I would start, anyway.

Yeah I have to say they hammered the 'no means no' thing into us pretty well.  But they never mentioned anything about how different it is when everybody is drunk.

That's a difficult thing. You'd have to start a campaign about when yes means no. I don't mean that in a jerky way, it's just that people do things when drunk that they otherwise wouldn't.

FWIW, Amherst Mass has about 20 rape convictions a year.

I agree we're already very conditioned against it--which is why it's very difficult to believe.

But yes doesn't mean no.

A person can consent to sex and then regret it the next day.  That doesn't make it rape.

And the number of convictions is not terribly helpful in determine the prevalence of a crime.  Most crimes of all sorts go undetected.  Never mind an offence like sexual assault where our conviction rate is notoriously terrible.

[Berkut]

Joe and Sarah gave been dating a while.

They have yet to have sex, although they have talked about it/made out, etc.

Joe wants to have sex, Sarah is not so sure.

Joa and Sarah go out to dinner, and share a bottle of wine. Both are feeling pretty good, and go back to Joe's apartment, where they have some more wine.

Sarah is pretty buzzed, but she still knows that she isn't quite ready to have sex with Joe - maybe soon, but not yet.

They are making out. Joe slides his hand inside Sarahs jeans. She likes it, but realizes thing are going a little fast than she would like.

She asks Joe to slow down, and he does, briefly, but they are still making out.

Sarah realized that her pants are now mostly off. She panics a little bit, and tells Joe to stop. Joe, being a gentleman, does so.

Sarah feels bad, because she does like Joe, and he seems pretty dissapointed, so she decides to go a little further, and performs oral on Joe.

Joe is getting pretty fired up again, Sarah is now shirtless and down to her underwear.

Joe is between her legs, and intercourse is clearly iminent - again. Sarah is feeling pretty worked up herself, and a little bit like she is probably not being entirely reasonable telling Joe no, but still - she just isn't ready.

She asks Joe to stop. Joe is on top of her, and now he is clearly upset/dissapointed. Not violent, or even apparenlty violent, but clearly unhappy at what he sees as being very frustrated.

Joe stops, but places his hand inside the wasteband of her panties, and says "Come on Sarah, we've waited long enough!" and starts sliding down her underwear. Sarah really doesn't want to, but is tired of saying no, so she does not object, but she does not say yes either. Joe removes her panties, and they have intercourse.

Did Joe rape Sarah? Did Joe sexually assault Sarah?

[Neil]

How about we start by teaching young men and women in Sex Ed what "no" can look like, what "compromised mental ability to give permission" looks like, and what affect rape can have on a person and their families? Then, we start working on getting rid of the idea that the victim could ever "ask for it". Now, let's seriously get rid of the whole "gift from God" pregnancy fiasco.

That's where I would start, anyway.

[Neil]

I mean, when Brazen says that there a few women her age - and she doubts any age - who have not been sexually assaulted or raped what do you make of that? Is she being hysterical? Is she trying to get some guy put into prison like Neil apparently fears? Is it possible she is better placed than you to judge the experience of women and is actually correct?

I'm not going to accept the premise that any random woman is batter able to analyze her gender's issues than I am.

[MadImmortalMan]

But yes doesn't mean no.

Of course not. But a drunken yes might be a sober no. The problem is, it was a yes at the time. I honestly don't have any idea how to alleviate that, but it is what it is. It's not rape if it's yes.

[Barrister]

Did Joe sexually assault Sarah?

Yes.  Without any doubt.  Sexual assault is a sex act without consent.  Sarah did not consent.

Now the better question to ask is "Does Joe have the defence of 'honest but mistaken belief in consent' available to him"?  The answer there is probably not, but at least it's not so obvious.  Once she says "no" Joe has to obtain a clear consent, not just silence.