25 years old and deep in debt

[Valmy]

Very true.  A colleague was just telling me an anecdote from the other day when, at a pre-trial conference (and therefore off the record) the trial judge asked the Crown if the victim was, you know, promiscuous.

This kind of crap enrages me to no end.  So the idea is that if you are promiscuous you are more likely to lie about being raped...or more it is ok to rape somebody who is promiscuous?

[MadImmortalMan]

Sadly there are few women my age (and I suspect of all ages) who when younger were not subjected to an occasion that by the modern definition and increased awareness would count as rape or sexual assault. But we were led to assume it was a situation we had got ourselves into and were more likely to bottle it up out of shame rather than discuss or report it.

Yep. Short skirts and booze = your own damn fault no matter how many times you said no.

Standard lawyer tactic is the 'bitch was asking for it' defense.

Doesn't matter. That's no excuse.

That said, there are probably just as many false rape accusations as real events that go unreported. Sweden has gained a rep as the false rape capital of the world. I could crunch Amherst's numbers and show that 1 in 4 girls did not get raped, but seriously why should I? Does anyone really think that's true on it's face? Unwanted advances? I got hit on by a 21 year old waitress last Tuesday. That was an unwanted advance, but I still enjoyed it. 

[Valmy]

Great. Glad to know that women are still considered second-class citizens in the courts. 

Well these are Canadian Courts.  I am sure Illinois Courts are all about equality.

[Barrister]

Very true.  A colleague was just telling me an anecdote from the other day when, at a pre-trial conference (and therefore off the record) the trial judge asked the Crown if the victim was, you know, promiscuous.

This kind of crap enrages me to no end.  So the idea is that if you are promiscuous you are more likely to lie about being raped...or more it is ok to rape somebody who is promiscuous?

If it makes you feel better (and it shouldn't) the complainant in that case was mentally disabled.  I don' think any judge would say that about a "regular" complainant.

[Neil]

Great. Glad to know that women are still considered second-class citizens in the courts. 

Yeah, I don't feel especially bad for you, since the alternative to 'women being treated as second-class citizens' is 'men going to jail and having to deal with scarlet letter sex offender laws on a woman's sayso'.

[Tonitrus]

Obviously, like every crime, rape needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  Even understanding that, short of good physical evidence (often DNA), this can be a very hard to crime to prove.  And other factors as well, such as the influence of alcohol.  Obviously, a heavily intoxicated woman should be deemed able to give consent, and the man should ideally be "chivalrous" and not take advantage...but what about cases where both parties are heavily intoxicated?

That being said, though, punishment for proven rape really needs to be brought back to being a capital crime. 

[Valmy]

men going to jail and having to deal with scarlet letter sex offender laws

Well that is the other problem.  Sex offender laws are so draconian.

[Neil]

That being said, though, punishment for proven rape really needs to be brought back to being a capital crime.

Only if they do it for burglary and thievery too.

[Barrister]

Obviously, like every crime, rape needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  Even understanding that, short of good physical evidence (often DNA), this can be a very hard to crime to prove.  And other factors as well, such as the influence of alcohol.  Obviously, a heavily intoxicated woman should be deemed able to give consent, and the man should ideally be "chivalrous" and not take advantage...but what about cases where both parties are heavily intoxicated?

That being said, though, punishment for proven rape really needs to be brought back to being a capital crime.

DNA though is only proof that sexual activity took place.  It says nothing about consent.  One of the ways we are able to prove a sexual assault is the accused denies anything took place, then we get DNA which proves he's lying.  Now he has no credibility left, and we get a conviction.

The law takes a very policy-based approach and says 'everyone is equally responsible for their actions while under self-induced intoxication'.  Again though, one of the ways we can prove sexual assault is when the woman is intoxicated to the point of passing out.  Now, consent is vitiated, so as long as we can prove the act, we get a conviction.

I do find it humourous that you think punishments aren't strong enough, and Valmy thinks they're too strong.

[Valmy]

The penalties right now are strong enough that a sex offender will find it almost impossible to function again in society except at a very meager level.  That serves as a huge disincentive for courts to convict people unless it is so blatantly obvious they have no choice.  Particularly when we are talking about college age boys. 

[Jacob]

Yeah, I don't feel especially bad for you, since the alternative to 'women being treated as second-class citizens' is 'men going to jail and having to deal with scarlet letter sex offender laws on a woman's sayso'.

There's a fairly large excluded middle ground there.

[Jacob]

That said, there are probably just as many false rape accusations as real events that go unreported.

Again, I'm curious what you're basing that on.

Sweden has gained a rep as the false rape capital of the world.

Where? On reddit?

I could crunch Amherst's numbers and show that 1 in 4 girls did not get raped, but seriously why should I?

By crunching the numbers, I assume you mean "define a bunch of incidents as 'not-rape'"?

Does anyone really think that's true on it's face? Unwanted advances? I got hit on by a 21 year old waitress last Tuesday. That was an unwanted advance, but I still enjoyed it. 

Yeah, because what we're talking about is exactly the same as a waitress flirting with a customer to increase her tip.

I mean, when Brazen says that there a few women her age - and she doubts any age - who have not been sexually assaulted or raped what do you make of that? Is she being hysterical? Is she trying to get some guy put into prison like Neil apparently fears? Is it possible she is better placed than you to judge the experience of women and is actually correct?

[merithyn]

I mean, when Brazen says that there a few women her age - and she doubts any age - who have not been sexually assaulted or raped what do you make of that? Is she being hysterical? Is she trying to get some guy put into prison like Neil apparently fears? Is it possible she is better placed than you to judge the experience of women and is actually correct?

I concur with Brazen on this one.

[MadImmortalMan]

Okay not joking around now---Do you guys seriously think that 25% of women are raped every year?

[Valmy]

Well I guess my question is what do we do about it?  I don't think having hugely draconian sex offender policies is really helping that much.

Or is it?  I guess we would have to look at different jurisdictions.  Somebody clearly thinks they do.