Calling Languish parents: Why did you decide to have children?

[Tamas]

But that isn't what you asked - you asked WHY people want to have kids. And the answer is because we are programmed to want to do so.

It is the exact same reason you want to have sex. Or to eat. Or to do any number of things you are programmed by biology to WANT to do.

You are wrong. I didn't ask why people WANT to have kids. I asked why people DO have kids. That's quite different.

you just keep digging yourself deeper, don't you?

[Martinus]

Until contraception was invented, it wasn't nearly the deliberate decision it is now either.

Not exactlly true but let's agree for the sake of argument that it is - that makes my question even more relevant, because presumedly in civilized West having children today is (or should be) a conscious decision and not an "accident".

[Martinus]

But that isn't what you asked - you asked WHY people want to have kids. And the answer is because we are programmed to want to do so.

It is the exact same reason you want to have sex. Or to eat. Or to do any number of things you are programmed by biology to WANT to do.

You are wrong. I didn't ask why people WANT to have kids. I asked why people DO have kids. That's quite different.

you just keep digging yourself deeper, don't you?

Not really. There is a vast gulf of difference between what we want and what we decide to do, especially when this affects lives of other human beings who have no say in the decision.

[Tamas]

But that isn't what you asked - you asked WHY people want to have kids. And the answer is because we are programmed to want to do so.

It is the exact same reason you want to have sex. Or to eat. Or to do any number of things you are programmed by biology to WANT to do.

You are wrong. I didn't ask why people WANT to have kids. I asked why people DO have kids. That's quite different.

you just keep digging yourself deeper, don't you?

Not really. There is a vast gulf of difference between what we want and what we decide to do, especially when this affects lives of other human beings who have no say in the decision.

well, unless you have that kid, he doesnt get to exist, and thus doesnt get to have a say in the matter of wanting to exist or not now, does he.

[Martinus]

The bottom line is, if you remove the biological instinct (which as a civilization we fairly often do to reach wildly different answers to various dilemmas than animals, for example when it comes to infanticide, violence, pack mentality etc.), having children is an ethical/philosophical conundrum and I find it rather disappointing that so many people here refuse to even consider it and immediately see it as an attack on their lifestyle.

However if it wasn't a valid question (I am not claiming what a valid answer to it is, btw) there wouldn't be philosophies and religions for the last 3,000 years constantly returning to the question, with some of them answering it by refusing to procreate (presumedly, not all gnostics or cathars were asexuals or homosexuals and at least some of them had the biological drive you refer to).

[The Brain]

"Why did you decide to have children?" is a legitimate question. It's a major decision that most people face and it's very often a conscious decision. That some people get defensive about it says more about those people than about the question.

[Tamas]

"Why did you decide to have children?" is a legitimate question. It's a major decision that most people face and it's very often a conscious decision. That some people get defensive about it says more about those people than about the question.

however, there is no difference between the questions of "why did you want children" and "why did you have children"

[Razgovory]

But that isn't what you asked - you asked WHY people want to have kids. And the answer is because we are programmed to want to do so.

It is the exact same reason you want to have sex. Or to eat. Or to do any number of things you are programmed by biology to WANT to do.

You are wrong. I didn't ask why people WANT to have kids. I asked why people DO have kids. That's quite different.

you just keep digging yourself deeper, don't you?

Does Marty still even care what people think of him?

[The Brain]

"Why did you decide to have children?" is a legitimate question. It's a major decision that most people face and it's very often a conscious decision. That some people get defensive about it says more about those people than about the question.

however, there is no difference between the questions of "why did you want children" and "why did you have children"

Elaborate.

[Martinus]

But that isn't what you asked - you asked WHY people want to have kids. And the answer is because we are programmed to want to do so.

It is the exact same reason you want to have sex. Or to eat. Or to do any number of things you are programmed by biology to WANT to do.

You are wrong. I didn't ask why people WANT to have kids. I asked why people DO have kids. That's quite different.

you just keep digging yourself deeper, don't you?

Does Marty still even care what people think of him?

I do. Not at Languish though. And crap I just showed myself to read your posts occassionally despite having you on ignore.

[Tamas]

"Why did you decide to have children?" is a legitimate question. It's a major decision that most people face and it's very often a conscious decision. That some people get defensive about it says more about those people than about the question.

however, there is no difference between the questions of "why did you want children" and "why did you have children"

Elaborate.

I am afraid we are in a "who is more bored" game and I am not sure I want to win.

[The Brain]

"Why did you decide to have children?" is a legitimate question. It's a major decision that most people face and it's very often a conscious decision. That some people get defensive about it says more about those people than about the question.

however, there is no difference between the questions of "why did you want children" and "why did you have children"

Elaborate.

I am afraid we are in a "who is more bored" game and I am not sure I want to win.

You touched upon a subject that I like, 'sall. A meaningful definition of want.

[Valdemar]

I didn't know justification was needed?  Reason, explanation, other words come to mind, but justification?

Uhm, these words are synonyms. Perhaps you are reading more into my question than there is? Again, you are extremely defensive about it which is quite funny. For the record, I don't question your "choice" to be attracted to women either. But surely the decision to have children was not an accident (I hope).

Synonums doesn't mean they are identical, only that they can carry the same meaning. Explanation and justification does not do that.

I can explain WHY Hitler ordered the wipe out of jews, using socio economic, populist or even psycological arguments, but that doesn't mean I am justifying it.

Neo Nazis will try to use the same kind of arguments to justify it, which isn't the same as explaining it.

As to your many following posts:

You are as usual slanting your replies. I haven't begun to answer your OP, only to tackle your reasoning behind even asking the question, and to some extend mocking you for doing it, so please do not begin to try to read an answer as to why people have kids into my posts

I think they do so in a rather spectacular way. And that's only two enraged parents so far so I'm not lifting the nets yet.

You think that is enraged? 

I'm nowhere near agressive yet, as long as I'm using smilies I'm replying tongue in cheek, but somehow I am not surprised that you read it diferently

Are you saying sexuality is a choice?

And yes, the acts of sex are always a choice, even if the drive may not be. There is ALWAYS a choice to do or do not, to act or to repress, that goes for your choice of partner as well as your choice of lifestyle. Lots of repressed homos, pedofiles, feetlickers out there who have the desire but never act upon it.

I think the decision to do something requires more justification than a decision not to do something. And is certainly more interesting, philosophically speaking. Your implied explanation ("everybody does that") shows you as being rather low on the self-awareness ladder.

You are reading way to much into my replies if you can read justification, or explanation, as to why I have kids into my posts. First of all, it doesn't need justification, in fact as I posted, NOT to have kids may very well be what needs justification as the explanation it self is obviously selfindulgence

V

[Valdemar]

I am not sure I understand the question, or rather, I don't understand why it was asked.

Isn't the *desire* for progeny a rather well understood phenomenon?  I wasn't really aware there was any need to explain it, even to those who do not share it.

It's the same reason Marty wants to have sex for example - because we are programmed to do so.

What is funny about the question is that Marty seems to understand (and feel no need to justify) why he wants to have sex, but is confused by why people want children. Does he not even understand that HIS desire to fuck is nothing at all more than the physical manifestation of the desire to procreate that all living beings (in general) have by definition?

It's all biology.

Hehehe

Berkut sees what I see, Martinass need to justify his own drives, by having the rest of us justify ours, instead of understanding and accpeting the differences

This is the breastfeeding thread all over

V

[Valdemar]

The premise that Valmy should feel guilty for wanting to raise his own offspring and not somebody else's is stupid and it's a shame he's buying into it. 

Oh well I'm not actually thinking that at all. Just thinking off of what Valmy said when he decided to play Marti's game.

It's funny how Peter Wiggin et consortes accuse people "of our ilk" of being self-dubting and defensive but are acting very defensive themselves, as if a mere question of their motives was somehow an attack on them personally. It reminds me of the reaction of religious people a bit when someone questions their faith.

I actually fail to see how trying to nail your underlaying motif for raising this subject should make us all defensive? I haven't yet seen one single post where a parent tried to defend or justify having their kids, I havent even seen one who tried to explain it to you.

V