Washington Named Britain's Greatest Foe

[Valmy]

The Battle of the Boyne? 

[Sheilbh]

The Battle of the Boyne?

Yeah, William fought Irish Jacobites and French soldiers, not a British army.

William the I was invited as well.  At least he said so.

Well that's out of the timeframe.  But I also think there's a key difference.  Parliament did the inviting and, by that point, that's the representative of Britain/England not whoever happens to have been crowned king.  I understand Euros struggling with this, but Americans should get it

[Viking]

The Battle of the Boyne?

Yeah, William fought Irish Jacobites and French soldiers, not a British army.

To the best of my knowledge it was a battle between a combined Dutch/Danish army against a French/Irish one. Britain had very little to do with the whole thing apart from being the prize in the contest.

[crazy canuck]

William the Bastard was not invited.  He was promised the succession and when that promise was breached he invaded.

[Razgovory]

Out of the time for the poll perhaps.  Did Parliament have the power to dismiss and appoint a King at the time?  Presumably Edward the Confessor had the power to legally designate his heir.

[Razgovory]

William the Bastard was not invited.  He was promised the succession and when that promise was breached he invaded.

Sounds like an invitation.  Unless Edward was going to make him king of someplace other then England.  I think William had many supporters in England already at that the time.  England was already starting to undergo "Normanization".

[Valmy]

Sounds like an invitation.  Unless Edward was going to make him king of someplace other then England.  I think William had many supporters in England already at that the time.  England was already starting to undergo "Normanization".

Though a surprisng few number of them were actually from Normandy.  It seems William recruited pretty widely.  I guess: 'Come fight and get a piece of England...oh and the Pope says it is your holy duty' is a good recruiting pitch.

[crazy canuck]

Sounds like an invitation.  Unless Edward was going to make him king of someplace other then England. 

I am not sure what you mean Raz.  Edward the Confessor first promised the succession and then revoked that promise.  If I invite you to my house and then call you and say you are no longer invited, you cannot take the position you continued to be invited in as the police drag you away for trespassing.

[Sheilbh]

Out of the time for the poll perhaps.  Did Parliament have the power to dismiss and appoint a King at the time?  Presumably Edward the Confessor had the power to legally designate his heir.

Parliament had just executed a King.  Their view was that James had broken the contract between nation and Monarch.  He'd therefore vacated the throne because he was no longer a legitimate monarch. 

Actually Parliament went through a long debate on their relationship with William.  They obviously circumscribed the powers of the executive but a big issue was whether they could be said to be 'electing' or 'acclaiming' a king.  They also made the King and all future Kings swear an oath to abide by the laws of England. 

[Richard Hakluyt]

I think we do have to take account of English perceptions when we talk about these matters. William the Bastard's invasion was a conquest; Raz is correct about the Normanisation of Saxon England that occured prior to the invasion, but that doesn't alter the fact that people have always counted it as an invasion and conquest. Dutch William was invited, this annoyed certain Jacobites and Irishmen, but for Protestant Englishmen was a triumph.

Now, after William's intervention England devoted herself to fighting the French, which suited Holland of course. But it also suited English public opinion, which had already been upset at Charles II's role as a French pensioner and cut up rough when an overt catholic came to the throne.

[CountDeMoney]

Who is William the Bastard?  Is he any relation to William the Conqueror?

[Richard Hakluyt]

That's him, bloody bastard taking away our ancient liberties 

[Razgovory]

Out of the time for the poll perhaps.  Did Parliament have the power to dismiss and appoint a King at the time?  Presumably Edward the Confessor had the power to legally designate his heir.

Parliament had just executed a King.  Their view was that James had broken the contract between nation and Monarch.  He'd therefore vacated the throne because he was no longer a legitimate monarch. 

Actually Parliament went through a long debate on their relationship with William.  They obviously circumscribed the powers of the executive but a big issue was whether they could be said to be 'electing' or 'acclaiming' a king.  They also made the King and all future Kings swear an oath to abide by the laws of England.

I'll take that as a no.  They did not have a legal right.

And Just because an invasion is popular with the people (or at least some of them), doesn't mean it wasn't an invasion.

[Sheilbh]

I'll take that as a no.  They did not have a legal right.

I don't know where you'd get that from.

Of course Parliament had the legal right.  They executed a King, the acclaimed a King, they established a legal oath for all future monarchs to swear to and they then passed a law regulating what monarchs can and can't do.  Given all of that I think it would be absurd to say that they don't also have the right, for example, to depose a King or - which is what they did - to say a King's behaviour has meant he's effectively abdicated.

[Razgovory]

Sounds like an invitation.  Unless Edward was going to make him king of someplace other then England. 

I am not sure what you mean Raz.  Edward the Confessor first promised the succession and then revoked that promise.  If I invite you to my house and then call you and say you are no longer invited, you cannot take the position you continued to be invited in as the police drag you away for trespassing.

I think the history is a bit iffy on that part.  Edward was not alive at the time William conquered England, so a more apt analogy is that you write a will that leaves me all your property.   You die, and I come to claim that property.  Then some family members of yours claim that the will has been superseded by death bed wish or something like that.  At which point I feel duly invited, and land an army of knights to over your house and kill your relatives.  Punch was later served.