Coup Rumours in China

[Siege]

Deng also set an important precedent in the way ousted leaders are treated.  In the Mao era, they were killed.  Deng overthrew Hua (Mao's appointed successor) to become paramount leader.  Very importantly, Hua was not physically harmed and he retained his personal freedom.  He even kept his ceremonial post in the party central committee for the next 20 years, until the 00s.  The party always made sure that he received a 100% yes vote in central committee elections (in recognition of his coup that ended the cultural revolution). 

The message is, it is ok to step down.  No need to fight to the death over it.

I have to admit.  I admire Deng somewhat.  He is probably the greatest Chinese statesman of the last century.  I do admire pragmatism.

I laughed.

[Jacob]

I do. I want ALL muslims DEAD!!!!!!111111oneoneone

How do you like that, Jacob?
How does your bleeding heart feel about about my deep hatred for Islam???

I don't really care, siegy. You're basically a joke.

[Razgovory]

I have to admit.  I admire Deng somewhat.  He is probably the greatest Chinese statesman of the last century.  I do admire pragmatism.

You also know that he called the shots behind Tinanmen, right?

Yes.  I stand by my statement.  It was excessive, I'll admit.  I'm not sure if a sudden shift to Democracy in 1989 would have been that good an idea though.  Look at what happened to Russia. Chaos, poverty, civil war, gangsters and finally a return to despotism.  I think Democracy is in China's best interest, but they should look at South Korea and Taiwan as models for transition.  A gradual transfer to democracy rather then the sudden dismantling of government and a leap of faith.

[Razgovory]

Deng also set an important precedent in the way ousted leaders are treated.  In the Mao era, they were killed.  Deng overthrew Hua (Mao's appointed successor) to become paramount leader.  Very importantly, Hua was not physically harmed and he retained his personal freedom.  He even kept his ceremonial post in the party central committee for the next 20 years, until the 00s.  The party always made sure that he received a 100% yes vote in central committee elections (in recognition of his coup that ended the cultural revolution). 

The message is, it is ok to step down.  No need to fight to the death over it.

I have to admit.  I admire Deng somewhat.  He is probably the greatest Chinese statesman of the last century.  I do admire pragmatism.

I laughed.

You don't know pragmatism.  Killing a billion people isn't a pragmatic solution to your problems.

[Barrister]

I have to admit.  I admire Deng somewhat.  He is probably the greatest Chinese statesman of the last century.  I do admire pragmatism.

You also know that he called the shots behind Tinanmen, right?

Yes.  I stand by my statement.  It was excessive, I'll admit.  I'm not sure if a sudden shift to Democracy in 1989 would have been that good an idea though.  Look at what happened to Russia. Chaos, poverty, civil war, gangsters and finally a return to despotism.  I think Democracy is in China's best interest, but they should look at South Korea and Taiwan as models for transition.  A gradual transfer to democracy rather then the sudden dismantling of government and a leap of faith.

You're an idiot.

Look at what happened in the rest of the communist block in 1989.  I sure like the chances of a Chinese democracy in 1989.

[Jacob]

If China takes a jump to democracy rather than a slow transition, it needs a charismatic leader to take it there to have any chance of making. The most recent charismatic leader on offer was a pseudo-Maoist with a penchant for blatantly disregarding the law even by CCP standards.

Personally, I think Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are good models for successful transitions to Democracy. Belarus, the Ukraine, Hungary etc, less so.

[Razgovory]

I don't think China has much chance of being annexed by West Germany.  Most of the Eastern bloc had a stabilizing force in the form of the European Union and NATO.  I don't think China has that.  China isn't surrounded by friendly states.  Most of the Eastern bloc states were also quite small, with small populations.  This does not apply to China either.  Lastly most of the Eastern bloc viewed their governments as occupation governments.  The Chinese don't seem to view their government as a Soviet puppet state.  The state in the Eastern bloc that China most resembles is the Soviet Union.  That is not a happy path to follow.

[Monoriu]

If China takes a jump to democracy rather than a slow transition, it needs a charismatic leader to take it there to have any chance of making. The most recent charismatic leader on offer was a pseudo-Maoist with a penchant for blatantly disregarding the law even by CCP standards.

Personally, I think Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are good models for successful transitions to Democracy. Belarus, the Ukraine, Hungary etc, less so.

I am not sure I want to go through a Japanese-style transition that involved a world war, destruction of most major cities, foreign occupation and two nuclear bombs 

[sbr]

If China takes a jump to democracy rather than a slow transition, it needs a charismatic leader to take it there to have any chance of making. The most recent charismatic leader on offer was a pseudo-Maoist with a penchant for blatantly disregarding the law even by CCP standards.

Personally, I think Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are good models for successful transitions to Democracy. Belarus, the Ukraine, Hungary etc, less so.

I am not sure I want to go through a Japanese-style transition that involved a world war, destruction of most major cities, foreign occupation and two nuclear bombs 

But after all that it went pretty well.

[Razgovory]

If China takes a jump to democracy rather than a slow transition, it needs a charismatic leader to take it there to have any chance of making. The most recent charismatic leader on offer was a pseudo-Maoist with a penchant for blatantly disregarding the law even by CCP standards.

Personally, I think Japan, Taiwan and South Korea are good models for successful transitions to Democracy. Belarus, the Ukraine, Hungary etc, less so.

Wait, someone is agreeing with me?

[Monoriu]

Here, democracy is often viewed as a means to an end.  The real goals are freedom, rule of law, and good governance.  Democracy is a way to achieve those.  The models that people here often talk about are Singapore and Hong Kong, which lack (real) democracy but provide good governance for the population. 

[Jacob]

I am not sure I want to go through a Japanese-style transition that involved a world war, destruction of most major cities, foreign occupation and two nuclear bombs 

Point conceded.

[Razgovory]

I think that China would have a much better chance of a successful sudden transition then it did in 1989.  The economic reforms have done wonders for the country.  Still it would be tricky.  Creating a whole new government in working order out of whole cloth is not easy.  It's even harder if your have create a whole new economic system with each part working independently but integrated all at once at the same time.

I would think that Barrister would be more sympathetic to the "Evolution over Revolution" model.  After all, that is path that Canada took.

[CountDeMoney]

I am not sure I want to go through a Japanese-style transition that involved a world war, destruction of most major cities, foreign occupation and two nuclear bombs 

Something's got to thin the globe of so many of you people. 
You won't stop fucking and over-populating the planet, so if your government won't help by covering up AIDS, SARS and H1N1 fast enough, somebody needs to help the process along.

[Jacob]

Something's got to thin the globe of so many of you people. 
You won't stop fucking...

Jealous?