What is the West? Is Greece part of the West?

[Valmy]

I think there is a difference between the bible itself and later Christian thought.

What point are you making here?  I was talking about Christianity so Christian thought is what it is about.

[dps]

I think Plato had preciously little with writing the Bible.  Also I think the Jews had a major impact on it as well.

But the Jews and the Greeks existed in the same cultural universe.  They came into contact with one another.  I think the Wisdom writers seem to have been influenced by trends in the thought of Hellenised Jewish communities.

Yeah, Paul is actually a very good example of this.  A Hellenized Jew who broke with Jewish tradition and embrazed the cultural dominance of the Hellenized world.

But, OTOH, Paul probably still considered himself a Jew.  And aside from nascent Christianity, there were other Jewish sects that embraced Hellenization to one extent or another.  Of course other Jewish sects rejected Greek ideas and culture completely.  There were a lot of Jewish sects during that time, and they had widely diverging ideas.

[Razgovory]

I think there is a difference between the bible itself and later Christian thought.

What point are you making here?  I was talking about Christianity so Christian thought is what it is about.

I think we are getting off track here.

[Valmy]

But, OTOH, Paul probably still considered himself a Jew.

Unless Paul was lying in his letters about it I think it is certain rather than probable.  He addresses specific conflicts between his people, the Jew Christians, and the Greek Christians.

[fhdz]

I think there is a difference between the bible itself and later Christian thought.

But if we're talking about Platonism, the difference is one of *more* Platonic thought, not less.

[Valmy]

I think we are getting off track here.

Well the dogma of the Church, at least until the reformation, is pretty important in linking Ancient Greece and Western Civ.

[Razgovory]

This is what I hate about Languish.  People provide so many more valid critisisms to my posts.  This was so much easier on EUOT.  I'll have to think more on this.

[Razgovory]

I think there is a difference between the bible itself and later Christian thought.

But if we're talking about Platonism, the difference is one of *more* Platonic thought, not less.

Actually, we are talking about what Is the West, and if Greece is the West as well.

[crazy canuck]

I think Plato had preciously little with writing the Bible.  Also I think the Jews had a major impact on it as well.

But the Jews and the Greeks existed in the same cultural universe.  They came into contact with one another.  I think the Wisdom writers seem to have been influenced by trends in the thought of Hellenised Jewish communities.

Yeah, Paul is actually a very good example of this.  A Hellenized Jew who broke with Jewish tradition and embrazed the cultural dominance of the Hellenized world.

But, OTOH, Paul probably still considered himself a Jew.  And aside from nascent Christianity, there were other Jewish sects that embraced Hellenization to one extent or another.  Of course other Jewish sects rejected Greek ideas and culture completely.  There were a lot of Jewish sects during that time, and they had widely diverging ideas.

I am not sure how Paul would have considered himself a Jew after teaching that Jewish cultural practices should be rejected in order to make Christianity more attractive to the wider Hellenized world.  A Jew by birth but not an observant Jew.

That is not to say that I disagree with your observation that Judaism itself was influenced by the cultural dominance of the hellenistic world around them - either in the rejection or adoption of that culture.

[crazy canuck]

This is what I hate about Languish.  People provide so many more valid critisisms to my posts.  This was so much easier on EUOT.  I'll have to think more on this.

[crazy canuck]

But, OTOH, Paul probably still considered himself a Jew.

Unless Paul was lying in his letters about it I think it is certain rather than probable.  He addresses specific conflicts between his people, the Jew Christians, and the Greek Christians.

That is the distinction between being a Jew in the sense of being a part of the Jewish people within the Roman empire (he was both a Jew and a Roman in that sense) and a religiously observant Jew - which he certainly was not, at least after his trip to Damascus..

[Razgovory]

I think we are getting off track here.

Well the dogma of the Church, at least until the reformation, is pretty important in linking Ancient Greece and Western Civ.

I do not deny that the the classical world had influence on the West.  But was this influence greater on the West over any other culture in the area?  Such as Eastern Europe or the Middle East?  If the influence on these places was equal or greater why should we consider the West the true heirs to the Greeks?

My thesis is that that there was a separate culture, a Mediterranean one pre-existed the current Western one.  In Western Europe this largely collapsed after Rome fell and a new civilization took place.  This new Civilization, built on the ruins of the old with a major influx of barbarians is what we call the West.  This  Mediterranean civilization last much longer in the East before falling to forces in the Middle East.  This classical mediteranian civilization contributed heavily to three other civilizations, Western European, Eastern European, and Middle Eastern.  These general categories of Civilization we use for today.  None of them actually are the direct heirs of ancient Greece, but instead heavily influence by them.

I am curious if the Russians consider themselves the heirs of ancient Greece.  Anyone know?

[Valmy]

Ok then we are not debating over anything substantial then.  I believe Western Civ split into an Eastern Branch and Western Branch.  You hold that it was a third Civ that split.

I guess I would have to be convinced my view requires proof Western Europe is more Greek than the Greeks.  That is absurd.

[Admiral Yi]

BTW, doesn't the Great Schism refer to the two popes, one in Avignon and the other in Rome?

[crazy canuck]

BTW, doesn't the Great Schism refer to the two popes, one in Avignon and the other in Rome?

Not so great, the west had a bunch of popes and antipopes.  The great one was between the eastern and western churches.