What is the West? Is Greece part of the West?

Started by Razgovory, January 17, 2012, 08:36:22 PM

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grumbler

Quote from: Sheilbh on January 17, 2012, 09:18:06 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 17, 2012, 09:10:49 PM
Interesting, but not very useful, since the concept predated the Cold war and has survived it.
What examples have you of it pre-dating it?
QuoteOH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,   
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;   
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,   
When two strong men stand face to face, tho' they come from the ends of the earth!
- R. Kipling 1889
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

Quote from: PDH on January 17, 2012, 10:26:51 PM
Of course the antecedents of the modern West are not part of that modern idea, but to exclude Greece, the Levant, hell even the Fertile Crescent of 7000 years ago takes an organizing concept and removes it from history.

The West is a process, not so much a thing.  Depending on one's organizing factors, several wide-ranging definitions could be drawn.  Really, it is like finding a starting date for some historical epoch without understanding that this is a moving target depending on what criteria one uses.

Divorcing the present from the past leads to Rick Perry style history.

Well-done!  You include a number of concepts here, and add reasonable language, and in the end I have not a clue as to what your point is.  :D

+4 Keyboard of Obfuscation.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

PDH

Quote from: grumbler on January 18, 2012, 07:45:18 AM

Well-done!  You include a number of concepts here, and add reasonable language, and in the end I have not a clue as to what your point is.  :D

+4 Keyboard of Obfuscation.

No need to try and teach Languish, it is a worthless goal.  Therefore, I just say stuff.
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
-Umberto Eco

-------
"I'm pretty sure my level of depression has nothing to do with how much of a fucking asshole you are."

-CdM

Valmy

Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Maximus

Quote from: Viking on January 18, 2012, 02:12:33 AM
It's a set of values and ideas. These Ideas are both unique to the west and central to it's ideals. It is on "a" time of enlightenment it is "The Enlightenment". This was not a generic golden age of peace power and prosperity but rather the formation of western values.

The Enlightenment created the specific western views on the Individual, Science, Law and Politics. You do not have non-western societies freeing the slaves "because they are humans too". You do not have non-western societies permitting the peaceful abolishment of cherished dogma by those who prove those dogmas wrong. You do not have non-western societies having judging authorities independent from political authorities. You do not have non-western societies resting ultimate political power in the people themselves.

These are uniquely western ideas. I'll agree that many try to emulate them. I'll just suggest that if you successfully emulate them you join the west; and I'll suggest that you can't join the west without adopting them.
It is unique to the modern west. You can call it "The Modern Western Enlightenment" if you wish, but outside that context it remains a period of enlightenment.

Viking

Quote from: Maximus on January 18, 2012, 08:52:54 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 18, 2012, 02:12:33 AM
It's a set of values and ideas. These Ideas are both unique to the west and central to it's ideals. It is on "a" time of enlightenment it is "The Enlightenment". This was not a generic golden age of peace power and prosperity but rather the formation of western values.

The Enlightenment created the specific western views on the Individual, Science, Law and Politics. You do not have non-western societies freeing the slaves "because they are humans too". You do not have non-western societies permitting the peaceful abolishment of cherished dogma by those who prove those dogmas wrong. You do not have non-western societies having judging authorities independent from political authorities. You do not have non-western societies resting ultimate political power in the people themselves.

These are uniquely western ideas. I'll agree that many try to emulate them. I'll just suggest that if you successfully emulate them you join the west; and I'll suggest that you can't join the west without adopting them.
It is unique to the modern west. You can call it "The Modern Western Enlightenment" if you wish, but outside that context it remains a period of enlightenment.

Yes, if you disregard everything that makes the period and it's ideas characteristic then, yes, it is a merely generic golden age. It is "The Enlightenment" not because it was a period of new ideas and progress, it is called "The Enlightenment" because the ideas and values of the period were about the enlightenment of the individual. "An" vs. "The" geddit?
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Eddie Teach

To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Razgovory

Quote from: Viking on January 18, 2012, 10:10:54 AM

Yes, if you disregard everything that makes the period and it's ideas characteristic then, yes, it is a merely generic golden age. It is "The Enlightenment" not because it was a period of new ideas and progress, it is called "The Enlightenment" because the ideas and values of the period were about the enlightenment of the individual. "An" vs. "The" geddit?

Incidentally where are these slave releases, peaceful abolishments and the like in the 17th century?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Viking

Quote from: Razgovory on January 18, 2012, 10:53:54 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 18, 2012, 10:10:54 AM

Yes, if you disregard everything that makes the period and it's ideas characteristic then, yes, it is a merely generic golden age. It is "The Enlightenment" not because it was a period of new ideas and progress, it is called "The Enlightenment" because the ideas and values of the period were about the enlightenment of the individual. "An" vs. "The" geddit?

Incidentally where are these slave releases, peaceful abolishments and the like in the 17th century?

Why would you expect such releases to happen before the enlightenment actually took political control of ancien regiemes? Stop being a dick.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.


Viking

First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

grumbler

Quote from: Maximus on January 18, 2012, 11:09:51 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 18, 2012, 10:10:54 AM
"An" vs. "The" geddit?
I disagree, geddit?

Stand by for heavy seas!  :lol:

I tend to agree with you that "The Enlightenment" is as much a misnomer as "The Renaissance" since the period of enlightenment and that of the rebirth never ended.  However, as popular (rather than strictly rational) terms, "The Enlightenment" and "The Renaissance" had end dates.

The key idea of the Enlightenment was not, in my opinion, that it was "about the enlightenment of the individual" (which it only was as a byproduct of its main idea), but that reason should be used to solve social and philosophical problems, not traditions, customs, or religion.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

crazy canuck

Quote from: Razgovory on January 17, 2012, 11:06:38 PM
The problem is that the Ancient Greeks were not particularly close to ideals of the Enlightenment.

The argument has been made that one of the factors which lead to the Enlightenment was the rediscovery of the Greek classics by the "West".

Viking

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2012, 12:18:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 17, 2012, 11:06:38 PM
The problem is that the Ancient Greeks were not particularly close to ideals of the Enlightenment.

The argument has been made that one of the factors which lead to the Enlightenment was the rediscovery of the Greek classics by the "West".

Yes, Thomas Aquinas and Peter Abelard started The Enlightenment back in the 13th century with their newly rediscovered Greek Classics. Reality never does fit on the back of an envelope.

No, The Enlightenment doesn't start until there are social, economic and political conditions permitting laymen to use philosophy. It's not the greek classics that start the reneissance, it is the inflow of really cool and hip greek artists, poets and authors into italy after the fall of the byzantine empire coupled with rich independent italian cities with cash to spend on art and culture. It's when the Reneissance Humanists realize that they can't use Aristotle to prove God (like they could with Plato) that the Enlightenment starts. First with courageous individuals who are not afrait to speak out despite the threats from theocrats or are protected by enlightened (note the lower case "e") rulers.

The Enlightenment starts when thinkers start trying to answer the questions that had religious answers without referring to God. During the reformation these people were in hiding or burned or made to recant. 200 years pass between the start of The Reneissance and the start of The Enlightenment.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Valmy

Quote from: crazy canuck on January 18, 2012, 12:18:17 PM
The argument has been made that one of the factors which lead to the Enlightenment was the rediscovery of the Greek classics by the "West".

I think rather it was the ability for those classics to be printed and thus widely distributed.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."