What is the West? Is Greece part of the West?

[grumbler]

Interesting, but not very useful, since the concept predated the Cold war and has survived it.

What examples have you of it pre-dating it?

OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,   
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;   
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,   
When two strong men stand face to face, tho' they come from the ends of the earth!

- R. Kipling 1889

[grumbler]

Of course the antecedents of the modern West are not part of that modern idea, but to exclude Greece, the Levant, hell even the Fertile Crescent of 7000 years ago takes an organizing concept and removes it from history.

The West is a process, not so much a thing.  Depending on one's organizing factors, several wide-ranging definitions could be drawn.  Really, it is like finding a starting date for some historical epoch without understanding that this is a moving target depending on what criteria one uses.

Divorcing the present from the past leads to Rick Perry style history.

Well-done!  You include a number of concepts here, and add reasonable language, and in the end I have not a clue as to what your point is. 

+4 Keyboard of Obfuscation.

[PDH]

Well-done!  You include a number of concepts here, and add reasonable language, and in the end I have not a clue as to what your point is. 

+4 Keyboard of Obfuscation.

No need to try and teach Languish, it is a worthless goal.  Therefore, I just say stuff.

[Valmy]

We are?

In Ancient Greece and the Enlightenment?  Yes.

[Maximus]

It's a set of values and ideas. These Ideas are both unique to the west and central to it's ideals. It is on "a" time of enlightenment it is "The Enlightenment". This was not a generic golden age of peace power and prosperity but rather the formation of western values.

The Enlightenment created the specific western views on the Individual, Science, Law and Politics. You do not have non-western societies freeing the slaves "because they are humans too". You do not have non-western societies permitting the peaceful abolishment of cherished dogma by those who prove those dogmas wrong. You do not have non-western societies having judging authorities independent from political authorities. You do not have non-western societies resting ultimate political power in the people themselves.

These are uniquely western ideas. I'll agree that many try to emulate them. I'll just suggest that if you successfully emulate them you join the west; and I'll suggest that you can't join the west without adopting them.

It is unique to the modern west. You can call it "The Modern Western Enlightenment" if you wish, but outside that context it remains a period of enlightenment.

[Viking]

It's a set of values and ideas. These Ideas are both unique to the west and central to it's ideals. It is on "a" time of enlightenment it is "The Enlightenment". This was not a generic golden age of peace power and prosperity but rather the formation of western values.

The Enlightenment created the specific western views on the Individual, Science, Law and Politics. You do not have non-western societies freeing the slaves "because they are humans too". You do not have non-western societies permitting the peaceful abolishment of cherished dogma by those who prove those dogmas wrong. You do not have non-western societies having judging authorities independent from political authorities. You do not have non-western societies resting ultimate political power in the people themselves.

These are uniquely western ideas. I'll agree that many try to emulate them. I'll just suggest that if you successfully emulate them you join the west; and I'll suggest that you can't join the west without adopting them.

It is unique to the modern west. You can call it "The Modern Western Enlightenment" if you wish, but outside that context it remains a period of enlightenment.

Yes, if you disregard everything that makes the period and it's ideas characteristic then, yes, it is a merely generic golden age. It is "The Enlightenment" not because it was a period of new ideas and progress, it is called "The Enlightenment" because the ideas and values of the period were about the enlightenment of the individual. "An" vs. "The" geddit?

[Eddie Teach]

People will argue about anything.

[Razgovory]

Yes, if you disregard everything that makes the period and it's ideas characteristic then, yes, it is a merely generic golden age. It is "The Enlightenment" not because it was a period of new ideas and progress, it is called "The Enlightenment" because the ideas and values of the period were about the enlightenment of the individual. "An" vs. "The" geddit?

Incidentally where are these slave releases, peaceful abolishments and the like in the 17th century?

[Viking]

Yes, if you disregard everything that makes the period and it's ideas characteristic then, yes, it is a merely generic golden age. It is "The Enlightenment" not because it was a period of new ideas and progress, it is called "The Enlightenment" because the ideas and values of the period were about the enlightenment of the individual. "An" vs. "The" geddit?

Incidentally where are these slave releases, peaceful abolishments and the like in the 17th century?

Why would you expect such releases to happen before the enlightenment actually took political control of ancien regiemes? Stop being a dick.

[Maximus]

"An" vs. "The" geddit?

I disagree, geddit?

[Viking]

"An" vs. "The" geddit?

I disagree, geddit?

You are either wrong or irrelevant or both, geddit?

[grumbler]

"An" vs. "The" geddit?

I disagree, geddit?

Stand by for heavy seas! 

I tend to agree with you that "The Enlightenment" is as much a misnomer as "The Renaissance" since the period of enlightenment and that of the rebirth never ended.  However, as popular (rather than strictly rational) terms, "The Enlightenment" and "The Renaissance" had end dates.

The key idea of the Enlightenment was not, in my opinion, that it was "about the enlightenment of the individual" (which it only was as a byproduct of its main idea), but that reason should be used to solve social and philosophical problems, not traditions, customs, or religion.

[crazy canuck]

The problem is that the Ancient Greeks were not particularly close to ideals of the Enlightenment.

The argument has been made that one of the factors which lead to the Enlightenment was the rediscovery of the Greek classics by the "West".

[Viking]

The problem is that the Ancient Greeks were not particularly close to ideals of the Enlightenment.

The argument has been made that one of the factors which lead to the Enlightenment was the rediscovery of the Greek classics by the "West".

Yes, Thomas Aquinas and Peter Abelard started The Enlightenment back in the 13th century with their newly rediscovered Greek Classics. Reality never does fit on the back of an envelope.

No, The Enlightenment doesn't start until there are social, economic and political conditions permitting laymen to use philosophy. It's not the greek classics that start the reneissance, it is the inflow of really cool and hip greek artists, poets and authors into italy after the fall of the byzantine empire coupled with rich independent italian cities with cash to spend on art and culture. It's when the Reneissance Humanists realize that they can't use Aristotle to prove God (like they could with Plato) that the Enlightenment starts. First with courageous individuals who are not afrait to speak out despite the threats from theocrats or are protected by enlightened (note the lower case "e") rulers.

The Enlightenment starts when thinkers start trying to answer the questions that had religious answers without referring to God. During the reformation these people were in hiding or burned or made to recant. 200 years pass between the start of The Reneissance and the start of The Enlightenment.

[Valmy]

The argument has been made that one of the factors which lead to the Enlightenment was the rediscovery of the Greek classics by the "West".

I think rather it was the ability for those classics to be printed and thus widely distributed.