What is the West? Is Greece part of the West?

[Valmy]

I consider Greece part of the "West" until the Middle Ages.  The Great Schism I guess is as good a date as any.  But certainly once they become part of the Ottoman Empire they cease to be part of the same culture.  But really it is just a matter of taste.

Really the "West" is a pretty arbitrary term.  Which is why I find Niall Ferguson annoying.

[Viking]

Of course the antecedents of the modern West are not part of that modern idea, but to exclude Greece, the Levant, hell even the Fertile Crescent of 7000 years ago takes an organizing concept and removes it from history.

The West is a process, not so much a thing.  Depending on one's organizing factors, several wide-ranging definitions could be drawn.  Really, it is like finding a starting date for some historical epoch without understanding that this is a moving target depending on what criteria one uses.

Divorcing the present from the past leads to Rick Perry style history.

The west started on July 27 1656 if it started on any date. It is a set of ideas named by a direction. That seems just silly. The West is the catchment area of the Enlightenment the values, ideas and merits of the west are the values, ideas and merits of the Enlightenment.

[Valmy]

The west started on July 27 1656 if it started on any date.

The 8th Anniversary of the Treaty of Westphalia party?

[Razgovory]

What makes the US or France, if anything, closer to Greece and Rome then Egypt and Bulgaria?

I'd say the so-called enlightenment movement.

It's not so-called and it's not a movement. It is The Enlightenment (tm) and it is the true bearer of the good that exists in the world today and is at the heart of the west. We (the west) do also carry some ancient and much evil philosophical baggage expounded by the pre-moderns, rationalists, romantics and other anti-reason and anti-individual thinkers.

The Enlightenment is ultimately what separates us from the non-us.

The problem is that the Ancient Greeks were not particularly close to ideals of the Enlightenment.

[Razgovory]

Interesting, but not very useful, since the concept predated the Cold war and has survived it.

What examples have you of it pre-dating it?

[/quote]

Well, Oswald Spengler was talking about the "Decline of the West" by during WWI.  That kinda predates the Cold War.

[Maximus]

It's not so-called and it's not a movement. It is The Enlightenment (tm) and it is the true bearer of the good that exists in the world today and is at the heart of the west. We (the west) do also carry some ancient and much evil philosophical baggage expounded by the pre-moderns, rationalists, romantics and other anti-reason and anti-individual thinkers.

The Enlightenment is ultimately what separates us from the non-us.

Perhaps movement is not the right word. A golden age of philosophy and learning. I'm not disparaging it, it was a time of enlightenment and I agree it is what defines "The West", but it is hardly unique in the history of the world.

[Valmy]

The problem is that the Ancient Greeks were not particularly close to ideals of the Enlightenment.

In general?  Because the culture and political systems the Enlightenment originated in was not particularly close to those ideals either.  We are talking about intellectual elites in both cases.

[Razgovory]

We are?

[Josquius]

Ethiopia is historically Christian.

It was. But not regarded as part of Christendom. It was pretty unknown and out of the way.

[Viking]

The west started on July 27 1656 if it started on any date.

The 8th Anniversary of the Treaty of Westphalia party?

The Excommunication of Spinoza.

[Viking]

It's not so-called and it's not a movement. It is The Enlightenment (tm) and it is the true bearer of the good that exists in the world today and is at the heart of the west. We (the west) do also carry some ancient and much evil philosophical baggage expounded by the pre-moderns, rationalists, romantics and other anti-reason and anti-individual thinkers.

The Enlightenment is ultimately what separates us from the non-us.

Perhaps movement is not the right word. A golden age of philosophy and learning. I'm not disparaging it, it was a time of enlightenment and I agree it is what defines "The West", but it is hardly unique in the history of the world.

It's a set of values and ideas. These Ideas are both unique to the west and central to it's ideals. It is on "a" time of enlightenment it is "The Enlightenment". This was not a generic golden age of peace power and prosperity but rather the formation of western values.

The Enlightenment created the specific western views on the Individual, Science, Law and Politics. You do not have non-western societies freeing the slaves "because they are humans too". You do not have non-western societies permitting the peaceful abolishment of cherished dogma by those who prove those dogmas wrong. You do not have non-western societies having judging authorities independent from political authorities. You do not have non-western societies resting ultimate political power in the people themselves.

These are uniquely western ideas. I'll agree that many try to emulate them. I'll just suggest that if you successfully emulate them you join the west; and I'll suggest that you can't join the west without adopting them.

[Razgovory]

It's a set of values and ideas. These Ideas are both unique to the west and central to it's ideals. It is on "a" time of enlightenment it is "The Enlightenment". This was not a generic golden age of peace power and prosperity but rather the formation of western values.

The Enlightenment created the specific western views on the Individual, Science, Law and Politics. You do not have non-western societies freeing the slaves "because they are humans too". You do not have non-western societies permitting the peaceful abolishment of cherished dogma by those who prove those dogmas wrong. You do not have non-western societies having judging authorities independent from political authorities. You do not have non-western societies resting ultimate political power in the people themselves.

These are uniquely western ideas. I'll agree that many try to emulate them. I'll just suggest that if you successfully emulate them you join the west; and I'll suggest that you can't join the west without adopting them.

Really?  You don't?  What about the numerous steps toward abolition in the late Roman empire?  What about the many Papal edicts banning slavery? I'm not sure what you mean by judging authorities independent of political authorities.  I mean, they had that in the Middle Ages as well.  Church courts were typically independent of the local King, and were considered fairer then Royal or noble courts in the Middle Ages.  One of the benefits of being literate is that you could get "benefit of Clergy" and have the right to be tried by religious authorities rather then secular ones.  Jews often had their own legal courts in the Ghetto as well.

[Sheilbh]

Interesting, but not very useful, since the concept predated the Cold war and has survived it.

What examples have you of it pre-dating it?

Well, Oswald Spengler was talking about the "Decline of the West" by during WWI.  That kinda predates the Cold War.
[/quote]
What did the concept mean to him?  Wasn't he rather Ezra Pound-ish in his views, you know borderline insane but weirdly interesting?

[syk]

Oswald Spengler called his work "Der Untergang des Abendlandes" = Decline of the Occident.

[Tamas]

The West, the civilisation originating from the four fundamental ideas of Levantine Religion, Greek Thought, Roman Law and Germanic Politics which was united by Roman Arms and transmitted through history through the Catholic Church into the hands of the people and thinkers of what is universally acknowledged as the west today.