What is the West? Is Greece part of the West?

[Valmy]

BTW, doesn't the Great Schism refer to the two popes, one in Avignon and the other in Rome?

No that was the "Western Schism" and I believe there were three Popes...maybe even four for a bit before Martin V un-Poped everybody (or maybe the College of Cardinals or some other body un-Poped everybody...I do not remember).  The Great Schism refers to the excommunication of the Patriarch of Constantinople by the Pope in 1054.

[Viking]

I think Plato had preciously little with writing the Bible.  Also I think the Jews had a major impact on it as well.

I think Plato had tons to do with Christian thought.

Not so much Plato but rather Plotinus and the Neoplatonists (who, if you asked them would have called themlselves Platonists). Neoplatonism, while it has pagan origins, is the foundation of Catholic thought. Effectively Catholicism is Neoplatonism with Jesus inserted. While the medievals lacked Plato's texts they had their consequences (as seen by Porphyrus and Plotinus) in their Liturgy.

[fhdz]

Actually, we are talking about what Is the West, and if Greece is the West as well.

You're the one who wanted to say (wrongly) that Plato didn't have much influence on Christianity.

In any event, the topics are tied together, since Platonism is certainly Greek and Christianity has certainly become associated with the West, for better or worse.

[Razgovory]

I said that Plato didn't write the Bible.,

[Razgovory]

Ok then we are not debating over anything substantial then.  I believe Western Civ split into an Eastern Branch and Western Branch.  You hold that it was a third Civ that split.

I guess I would have to be convinced my view requires proof Western Europe is more Greek than the Greeks.  That is absurd.

I would help to look back and see what this thread is about.  If Ancient Greece is the cradle of Western Civilization and was part of the West it should be the epitome of what is "Western".  For both societies to move their own way and only one be called "Western" and the one that is Western is the one that isn't Greek it means the other one has to out Greek the Greeks.  Or perhaps be more "Western" then the founder of "Westernism".

As I said, the Greeks and Bulgarians draw a great deal of their intellectual heritage from ancient Greece, why should they be relegated to "eastern" while Britain is considered "Western"?  The only reason I can think of is intellectual chauvinism.  The desire to draw a direct line from the brilliant culture of ancient Greece to the modern period.  I reject this.

[dps]

Ok then we are not debating over anything substantial then.  I believe Western Civ split into an Eastern Branch and Western Branch.  You hold that it was a third Civ that split.

I guess I would have to be convinced my view requires proof Western Europe is more Greek than the Greeks.  That is absurd.

I would help to look back and see what this thread is about.  If Ancient Greece is the cradle of Western Civilization and was part of the West it should be the epitome of what is "Western".  For both societies to move their own way and only one be called "Western" and the one that is Western is the one that isn't Greek it means the other one has to out Greek the Greeks.  Or perhaps be more "Western" then the founder of "Westernism".

As I said, the Greeks and Bulgarians draw a great deal of their intellectual heritage from ancient Greece, why should they be relegated to "eastern" while Britain is considered "Western"?  The only reason I can think of is intellectual chauvinism.  The desire to draw a direct line from the brilliant culture of ancient Greece to the modern period.  I reject this.

Not sure that follows.  The Chinese invented gunpowder, but that's not made them a predominat military power since then.

[Razgovory]

True, but I wouldn't consider the France "Chinese" because they adopted either.

[grumbler]

You're wrong on the Renaissance.  They didn't feel inferior.  The Medieval world felt inferior, in some ways, but one of the marks of the Renaissance is a certain intellectual self-confidence.  For example Petrarch wrote a series of letters to Cicero, as a friend.  He was not only equal to, but corresponding with, the Classical world.  That sort of intimacy is unimaginable in the Medieval period.

The School of Athens confirms this attitude, IMO.

[grumbler]

BTW, doesn't the Great Schism refer to the two popes, one in Avignon and the other in Rome?

Both the 1054 schism and the 1378 schism are referred to as "the Great Schism."

[dps]

True, but I wouldn't consider the France "Chinese" because they adopted either.

Well, we don't call the West Greece, we call it the West.

[Valmy]

I would help to look back and see what this thread is about.  If Ancient Greece is the cradle of Western Civilization and was part of the West it should be the epitome of what is "Western".  For both societies to move their own way and only one be called "Western" and the one that is Western is the one that isn't Greek it means the other one has to out Greek the Greeks.  Or perhaps be more "Western" then the founder of "Westernism".

I disagree and am unconvinced by this premise so I fail to see the value in arguing it.  I mean India is the cradle of Buddhism but there are many countries more Buddhist than India.

As I said, the Greeks and Bulgarians draw a great deal of their intellectual heritage from ancient Greece, why should they be relegated to "eastern" while Britain is considered "Western"?  The only reason I can think of is intellectual chauvinism.  The desire to draw a direct line from the brilliant culture of ancient Greece to the modern period.  I reject this.

No it is for perfectly good historical reasons I have discussed several times in this thread.  Intellectual Chauvinism?  Please.

[PDH]

Is this one of those "thoughts" that is actually an assertion, Raz?  It seems you are ignoring the evidence that shows how the West used (in Ancient times and later Medieval/Renaissance) the work of the Greeks to build and increase the foundation of those things that are essentially Western.

[grumbler]

I would help to look back and see what this thread is about.  If Ancient Greece is the cradle of Western Civilization and was part of the West it should be the epitome of what is "Western".  For both societies to move their own way and only one be called "Western" and the one that is Western is the one that isn't Greek it means the other one has to out Greek the Greeks.  Or perhaps be more "Western" then the founder of "Westernism".

I disagree and am unconvinced by this premise so I fail to see the value in arguing it.  I mean India is the cradle of Buddhism but there are many countries more Buddhist than India.

It is classic Razzian "gotcha" argumentation:  built on premises that are, in fact, not only not generally accepted, but made up on the spot, and then presenting an obviously flawed "conclusion" as though its flaws then disproved the contention that Greece was one of the wellsprings of Western thought.

I recommend that you just ignore him.   There is no intellectual honesty in this kind of argument, just an effort to somehow "set you up" so he can come back with this kind of lame "zinger."

[fhdz]

I said that Plato didn't write the Bible.,

But since we all know that's true, why even bother to say it?

No, you were trying to make a point about Greek influence on the Bible. And it was an incorrect one. No weasling, now - take it like a man.

[Razgovory]

I'm well aware of what point I was trying to make.