What is the West? Is Greece part of the West?

[Razgovory]

I would help to look back and see what this thread is about.  If Ancient Greece is the cradle of Western Civilization and was part of the West it should be the epitome of what is "Western".  For both societies to move their own way and only one be called "Western" and the one that is Western is the one that isn't Greek it means the other one has to out Greek the Greeks.  Or perhaps be more "Western" then the founder of "Westernism".

I disagree and am unconvinced by this premise so I fail to see the value in arguing it.  I mean India is the cradle of Buddhism but there are many countries more Buddhist than India.

It is classic Razzian "gotcha" argumentation:  built on premises that are, in fact, not only not generally accepted, but made up on the spot, and then presenting an obviously flawed "conclusion" as though its flaws then disproved the contention that Greece was one of the wellsprings of Western thought.

I recommend that you just ignore him.   There is no intellectual honesty in this kind of argument, just an effort to somehow "set you up" so he can come back with this kind of lame "zinger."

You should follow your own advice and stay out of my thread.

[Razgovory]

Is this one of those "thoughts" that is actually an assertion, Raz?  It seems you are ignoring the evidence that shows how the West used (in Ancient times and later Medieval/Renaissance) the work of the Greeks to build and increase the foundation of those things that are essentially Western.

Which part?

Tell me, do Eastern Europeans think their culture is derived from ancient Greek?  Are they taught Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates.  Are they taught the Iliad and the Odyssey?

[PDH]

Are they part of a tradition that uses the elemental greek philosophies as a basis for logic, human understanding, relation to the physical world, metaphysics?  Are they part of a tradition that bases this upon a rediscovery of these tracts a thousand years ago, and later attempted to draw specific ties to these ancients?

It is not rocket science, the intellectual descent from the ancient greeks to the roots of Western philosophical systems is expressed, intended, and sought after.

As I said a long time ago, because something is a precurser does not make that the same, but it does make it a precurser - and in the case of Greece, explicity a precurser with entire thought systems built to exploit this earlier knowledge.  Religion, religious systems, logic...all are tied to the greeks.

[Zanza]

Were Austria-Hungary and Prussia part of the West or the East or maybe both?

[DGuller]

Were Austria-Hungary and Prussia part of the West or the East or maybe both?

The good parts were part of the West.  The shitty parts were part of the East.

[Razgovory]

Are they part of a tradition that uses the elemental greek philosophies as a basis for logic, human understanding, relation to the physical world, metaphysics?  Are they part of a tradition that bases this upon a rediscovery of these tracts a thousand years ago, and later attempted to draw specific ties to these ancients?

It is not rocket science, the intellectual descent from the ancient greeks to the roots of Western philosophical systems is expressed, intended, and sought after.

As I said a long time ago, because something is a precurser does not make that the same, but it does make it a precurser - and in the case of Greece, explicity a precurser with entire thought systems built to exploit this earlier knowledge.  Religion, religious systems, logic...all are tied to the greeks.

I am unclear what you are responding to here.  I wrote four questions.

"Which Part?
"And four questions about Eastern Europe".

What are you responding to?

[Razgovory]

Were Austria-Hungary and Prussia part of the West or the East or maybe both?

The good parts were part of the West.  The shitty parts were part of the East.

Dguller, do you know if they teach Greek Philosophy in Russia?  Is it regarded as the basis of their philosophy?

[PDH]

I am not arguing if Bulgaria is part of the West or not, I am arguing against what you asserted earlier - that Greece (and more classical Greece) is not part of the West.

I have shown specific links between the two, I have also stated that a precurser is not the same as a descendent, but they are linked - in the case of Greece openly and expressly linked.  Being a precursor such as this makes ancient Greece part of the west, as they are part of the tradition and self-identification that the West uses.

You either are not listening, or you are going off on tangents rather than listening.

[Razgovory]

I can show explicit links between Greece and Bulgaria, or Sumeria and Greece for that matter.  If a country like Bulgaria draws explicit links from Greece and Bulgaria is not Western then neither can Greece be.  It can't be both Western and Eastern European at the same time.

[DGuller]

Were Austria-Hungary and Prussia part of the West or the East or maybe both?

The good parts were part of the West.  The shitty parts were part of the East.

Dguller, do you know if they teach Greek Philosophy in Russia?  Is it regarded as the basis of their philosophy?

No idea whatsoever.

[fhdz]

I'm well aware of what point I was trying to make.

...and it was that Plato didn't write the Bible?

Congratulations.

I am going to make an awesome point now as well. Ahem:

"Corn flakes usually contain corn."

I so win this fucking thread!

[Sheilbh]

I'm not sure what you're arguing Raz.  But a few things about your last post.

I don't think your argument actually follows.

Cultures aren't hermetically sealed and some how exclusive and pure.  They interact, mingle and define one another in all sorts of ways.

I think you really overstate the West-Eastern European divisions. You make it sound like they're as culturally separate as Sami and Aborigine.  They're very close, almost as one.

Having said all that I'm still not sure what purpose defining Western serves. As I say I still don't get your point at all.

[HVC]

"Corn flakes usually contain corn."

That's what they want you to think. 100% tree bark

[Valmy]

Having said all that I'm still not sure what purpose defining Western serves.

In general or in this thread?  In general because the term 'The West' and 'Western Values' and the like get used in public discourse all the time so it is useful to define what exactly people mean when they say them.

[Razgovory]

I'm sorry you couldn't put words in my Mouth Fahdiz.