[AAR] No Retreat - Berkut vs. Tamas

[Berkut]

During the German turn, the SS Panzer and 3rd Panzer couter-attack against the weak Soviet southern flank, pushing back a shock army and shattering an infantry army. Nothing to serious, but I am trying to punish Tamas for concentrating his offensive forces in the center by hitting the flank. I didn't kill anything (was hoping to off the shock army) but he does have a large hole in the south now...

[Berkut]

I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting.

Please explain.

A variety of things.

1. East Front games where the Soviets are not effected by weather annoy me. It is fine that the Germans even get effected MORE by the weather, or that you can even say that first winter was especially bad for them because they were not prepared, but the general rule of "In Winter, attacker is shifted down a column if the defender is Soviet" is somewhat idiotic. Like Russians don't feel the cold, or Russian trucks drive in the snow better or Russian soldiers don't get cold.

Also, apparently the Russians have magic trucks that are not effected by mud. Mud effects only apply to Germans, for most/all practical purposes.

[Habbaku]

Unity of Command's weather hurts both sides.

[Tamas]

I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting.

Please explain.

A variety of things.

1. East Front games where the Soviets are not effected by weather annoy me. It is fine that the Germans even get effected MORE by the weather, or that you can even say that first winter was especially bad for them because they were not prepared, but the general rule of "In Winter, attacker is shifted down a column if the defender is Soviet" is somewhat idiotic. Like Russians don't feel the cold, or Russian trucks drive in the snow better or Russian soldiers don't get cold.

Also, apparently the Russians have magic trucks that are not effected by mud. Mud effects only apply to Germans, for most/all practical purposes.

heh, my improved mechanized units have 4 MPs, so there is an effect and the real hurt here is the lack of armor advance

[11B4V]

Unity of Command's weather hurts both sides.

With the size of the heads, I could imagine

[Ideologue]

I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting.

Please explain.

A variety of things.

1. East Front games where the Soviets are not effected by weather annoy me. It is fine that the Germans even get effected MORE by the weather, or that you can even say that first winter was especially bad for them because they were not prepared, but the general rule of "In Winter, attacker is shifted down a column if the defender is Soviet" is somewhat idiotic. Like Russians don't feel the cold, or Russian trucks drive in the snow better or Russian soldiers don't get cold.

So Russian soldiers aren't immune to cold, is what you're saying?

2. My other "meh" is that the way the combat system and replacement system works, the Russians really don't care how many losses they take. In fact, it doesn't even really matter how many Russians you kill, because the replacement system largely amounts to "take all dead Russians, stick them back on the map". This probably works for balance and "design for effect" reasons, but from a gameplay perspective, it makes it kind of pointless to come up with clever tactics to pocket and kill Russians. So what? They are all coming back anyway, so why bother? To some degree this is a feature, because it does force the German player to make his attacks have a purpose beyond just trying to kill Russians. The opportunity to kill a few units is not really a good enough reason to attack, since it won't matter anyway, you need to have a purpose beyond that.

But it still makes the combat phase less interesting, IMO. There are all these interesting cards that let you do interesting things, that mostly amount to nothing at all, because at the end of the day, who cares that you just made a nice play to kill some units or cut them out of supply? They are just coming back anyway. Play well, and you kill more Russians, that all come back. Play poorly, and you kill less Russians, which amounts to the same thing...

Hm.  That's interesting.  My impression was that the RKKA was nearly bled out by 1945, with manpower becoming a big issue both in regards to actually getting bodies to units and viz. Soviet agriculture.  That is, that in some different world, the Germans could have killed enough Russians to make them basically ineffective.  I mean, there were a lot but hardly an infinite number of them.

[11B4V]

Maybe those that have played this can answer. What does this game offer that older titles like Russian Campaign, Russian Front or others have already established? Seems like a dumbed down version. Please, no offense intended.

[Tamas]

Maybe those that have played this can answer. What does this game offer that older titles like Russian Campaign, Russian Front or others have already established? Seems like a dumbed down version. Please, no offense intended.

I don't know those games. This one is heavy on abstraction, due to the scale. I am fairly convinced that it does a good job of presenting you with historical problems, a historical flow, and a balanced game victory points - wise, but I think Berkut would challenge this on multiple points, and based on my test plays I have doubts about late game Soviet chances which I am awaiting to see in proper action.

For me, what the game surely gives above any more hardcore takes on the theme, is a chance to play it with face to face opponents, due to scale and playtime.

[Razgovory]

I'd very much like to see you guys finish this game.  I was entertained so far.

[Tamas]

I'd very much like to see you guys finish this game.  I was entertained so far.

We are playing it still and I will do an update tomorrow.

[Razgovory]

Excellent.

[Berkut]

Maybe those that have played this can answer. What does this game offer that older titles like Russian Campaign, Russian Front or others have already established? Seems like a dumbed down version. Please, no offense intended.

Some things I think this does better than TRC, as an example (understanding that this game is clearly very influenced by TRC and Russia Besieged).

1. First and foremost, I think its biggest selling point is that it does an excellent job of creating a lot of "oh crap, that plan just went to shit..." moments. The way the card play works with the ability of the non-phasing player to completely screw up your carefully laid plans places a premium on keeping your planning abstract Rather than the "if I move unit A to hex Y, and unit B to hex Z I know that there is nothing that my opponent can do to keep me from doing what I want to do..." norms you get in most games, there is just too many things the other guy can do to throw your plan into tatters.

Which means you cannot make plans that are dependent on things going according to plan. Which means you often do not achieve as much as you could have, because you simply do not know. There is a very nice "swirl" to the game that is a blast.

2. The VP system is really cool. At least I think it is. The way the Germans drive at auto-victory, but if they do not achieve it they are still rewarding for coming as close as possible is really well done. You don't get the common German "Well, I am not going to AV, so there is no reason to try to take anymore VP sapces" that you see in most EF games.

3. The manner in which the non-phasing player usually has some pretty interesting decisions to make does a nice job of making the game a lot of fun. You aren't just sitting there in your turn waiting for the other guy to finish so you can play.

The game is not perfect, but so far it has been a lot of fun. And I think that the ways in which other games are more complex are not necessarily that meaningful, unless you start talking about games that are complex enough (say Red Star Rising) that the comparison is not longer really valid.

[Tamas]

TURNS 14 AND 15, JULY-OCTOBER 1943

It is a credit to the German defensive cardplay, that there is not much to say about mid-summer time. Smolensk was liberated, yes, but once again the Soviet attempt to break through to the wide open plains behind the German lines failed, as they could not shatter the defending units, which retreated in good order.
But time is of the essence, so the Soviet tanks were pushed into a dangerous advance, severly compromising their flanks.

The below screen is from the German 15th turn, to show you just that:



You can see that I managed to form a much more smaller and thus dangerous version of the Kursk salient, and the Germans were quick to capitalize on that. But Andrey Yeremenko saved the day, and gave ma Counterblow result, continuing the big battle itself into my turn, but allowing me partially retreat my forces and reduce the potential damage.


You can also note that Berkut played Defensive Works on Kharkov, a wise move which made the liberation of that key city that much harder to try.

So, my Turn 15 moves saw the aforementioned partial retreat of my advancing tanks, as well as preparing yet another attempt at Rostov:

[sbr]

Nice to see this continue.

[grumbler]

1. First and foremost, I think its biggest selling point is that it does an excellent job of creating a lot of "oh crap, that plan just went to shit..." moments. The way the card play works with the ability of the non-phasing player to completely screw up your carefully laid plans places a premium on keeping your planning abstract Rather than the "if I move unit A to hex Y, and unit B to hex Z I know that there is nothing that my opponent can do to keep me from doing what I want to do..." norms you get in most games, there is just too many things the other guy can do to throw your plan into tatters.

Which means you cannot make plans that are dependent on things going according to plan. Which means you often do not achieve as much as you could have, because you simply do not know. There is a very nice "swirl" to the game that is a blast.

2. The VP system is really cool. At least I think it is. The way the Germans drive at auto-victory, but if they do not achieve it they are still rewarding for coming as close as possible is really well done. You don't get the common German "Well, I am not going to AV, so there is no reason to try to take anymore VP sapces" that you see in most EF games.

3. The manner in which the non-phasing player usually has some pretty interesting decisions to make does a nice job of making the game a lot of fun. You aren't just sitting there in your turn waiting for the other guy to finish so you can play.

The game is not perfect, but so far it has been a lot of fun. And I think that the ways in which other games are more complex are not necessarily that meaningful, unless you start talking about games that are complex enough (say Red Star Rising) that the comparison is not longer really valid.

I think a lot of designers get so wrapped up in the mechanics that they fail to keep their eye on the ball, which is interesting decisions.  Pride of Nations is perhaps the classic example.  Glad to see that this game has avoided that pitfall, apparently in spades.