Any way for the Germans to win the Eastern front?

[The Larch]

None of which includes the casualties incurred while occupying those countries.

Nope, that's just the invasion itself. A good what if would be if Germany could have kept Yugoslavia from getting couped and enlisted as another friendly ally. They'd have some communist partisans anyway, I guess, but they'd have saved plenty of garrisons.

[jimmy olsen]

More important than the personal loss is the gallons of gas used, the ammunition, spare parts, rail stock, etc.

[Darth Wagtaros]

I never played SS Amerika.

I did in HOI2.  Wrote an AAR about it. Wasn't as well received as Euro Wars and Euro Wars 2: Tank Treads of Doom, but it generated some buzz.

[Razgovory]

Maybe if Britain had joined Germany as ally like Hitler wanted.  Though that was fairly unlikely.

I'm not sure if even capturing Moscow would have won the war.  It would have helped, but I imagine that war would still go on.  Germans putting nerve gas on V2 rockets probably wouldn't have helped them.  The Allies had their own poison gas and having a thousand bombers drop poison gas over a city would have a rather nasty effect.  And while Germany was manufacturing gas just in case the war took that turn, they would have had to divert more resources to maintain the ability the use it.

Eliminating the V2 and V1 programs would have been more sensible, since they cost a great deal of money, resources, and manpower and provided very little useful war material.  I'm not even sure if the jet program was worth it.

[Habbaku]

None of which includes the casualties incurred while occupying those countries.

Nope, that's just the invasion itself. A good what if would be if Germany could have kept Yugoslavia from getting couped and enlisted as another friendly ally. They'd have some communist partisans anyway, I guess, but they'd have saved plenty of garrisons.

Indeed, especially if the Yugoslavs allying includes their getting a slice of Greece.  If the Yugos are then willing to send some volunteers off like the other Balkan allies (save for Bulgaria), then it becomes potentially decisive.

[Razgovory]

Or have the Yugos simply remain neutral.  Yugoslavia took up lots of resources, but provided little benefit.

[jimmy olsen]

11B4V, you've certainly read a lot of books on this subject, what do you think?

[grumbler]

If the Germans unleashed gas warfare, the Allies were prepared to unleash anthrax.  Imagine the German Army with no artillery, supply wagons, or food (as the farm animals would have died as well).  The Germans did not want to let that genie out of the bottle. 

[11B4V]

11B4V, you've certainly read a lot of books on this subject, what do you think?

Unless you change a whole lot of the "conditions" to favor the Germans at the start of Barbarossa, no.

They gave it a good go.

[11B4V]

  Army Group Center was not in a position to attack Moscow yet, due to supply considerations.  A lateral move was possible, though, and defeat of the enemy armies in the field had resulted in a quick capture of an enemy capital in the past.

One can argue that the extra wear and tear on the men and machines that resulted from the diversion of forces to the Balkans and Kiev was a factor in slowing the German advance, but I don't think it was a decisive one.  Plus, the Soviets would have been much stronger in front of Moscow if they had had the men they lost in the Kiev pocket.

In the orginal plan AG Center and AG South were to clear the Pripyat Marshes abreast. This didn't happen. The Russians had grouped a bulk of their moblie units with the Southwest Direction facing AG South, which slowed AG South considerably.

The intial Soviet War/Defense Plan created by their General Staff, predicted the main German effort with AG Center. Stalin rejected this, because he thought that Hitler's main target was the Ukraine. Stalin had them change the plan to reflect this. Hence why the bulk of the Soviet mobile forces were grouped with Kirponos. So, Stalin's generals got it right. Stalin did not.

That being said, if AG Center had proceeded against Moscow without aiding AG South, they would have had a southern flank/salient upwards to 350 miles long with very strong Russian forces there.

[11B4V]

11B4V, you've certainly read a lot of books on this subject, what do you think?

Some good reads;

Moscow to Stalingrad: Decision in the East Ziemke uses German primary sources. Great book along with it's follow on Stalingrad to Berlin.

When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler
Decent overall if not general

Before Stalingrad: Barbarossa, Hitler's Invasion of Russia 1941
Excellent

The Road to Stalingrad
Good but dated

Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War
Good insights into Soviet prewar planning and deployments.

Others of interest;

Standing Fast: German Defensive Doctrine on the Russian Front During World War II
Prewar to March 1943

Fighting the Russians in Winter:
Three Case Studies

[Razgovory]

In the orginal plan AG Center and AG South were to clear the Pripyat Marshes abreast. This didn't happen. The Russians had grouped a bulk of their moblie units with the Southwest Direction facing AG South, which slowed AG South considerably.

The intial Soviet War/Defense Plan created by their General Staff, predicted the main German effort with AG Center. Stalin rejected this, because he thought that Hitler's main target was the Ukraine. Stalin had them change the plan to reflect this. Hence why the bulk of the Soviet mobile forces were grouped with Kirponos. So, Stalin's generals got it right. Stalin did not.

That being said, if AG Center had proceeded against Moscow without aiding AG South, they would have had a southern flank/salient upwards to 350 miles long with very strong Russian forces there.

Sound likes Stalin's move influenced Hitler's.  I know a lot of German generals criticized the operation around Kiev, but they could hardly drive on Moscow with a very large army near their rear.  Would clearing the Pripayt marshes like that even be possible?   It's a huge swamp.  It would swallow up whole armies.  I don't think the Germans ever really pacified it.

[11B4V]

In the orginal plan AG Center and AG South were to clear the Pripyat Marshes abreast. This didn't happen. The Russians had grouped a bulk of their moblie units with the Southwest Direction facing AG South, which slowed AG South considerably.

The intial Soviet War/Defense Plan created by their General Staff, predicted the main German effort with AG Center. Stalin rejected this, because he thought that Hitler's main target was the Ukraine. Stalin had them change the plan to reflect this. Hence why the bulk of the Soviet mobile forces were grouped with Kirponos. So, Stalin's generals got it right. Stalin did not.

That being said, if AG Center had proceeded against Moscow without aiding AG South, they would have had a southern flank/salient upwards to 350 miles long with very strong Russian forces there.

Sound likes Stalin's move influenced Hitler's.  I know a lot of German generals criticized the operation around Kiev, but they could hardly drive on Moscow with a very large army near their rear.  Would clearing the Pripayt marshes like that even be possible?   It's a huge swamp.  It would swallow up whole armies.  I don't think the Germans ever really pacified it.

You misinterpit.

AG Center was operating north of the marshes and AG South was south of that area. When they moved "past", "cleared" (it was no longer on their flanks) they were to be linked up. That did not happen. Hence AG South could not secure AG Centers right flank.

[11B4V]

Stahel's books are supposed to be pretty good too. Havent read them yet. Too busy with Nipe's and Nash's tomes.

[Razgovory]

You misinterpit.

AG Center was operating north of the marshes and AG South was south of that area. When they moved "past", "cleared" (it was no longer on their flanks) they were to be linked up. That did not happen. Hence AG South could not secure AG Centers right flank.

Ah okay.  I understand what you mean.