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Americas Elect 2012 - the Not Party

Started by merithyn, November 17, 2011, 09:51:19 AM

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Razgovory

Quote from: Siege on November 19, 2011, 10:40:08 PM
Quote from: merithyn on November 17, 2011, 09:51:19 AM
Has anyone heard of this movement? What are the chances that it will continue and grow beyond 2012? I like the idea, but I question it's longevity.

http://www.americanselect.org/

So, the Demoncrats know they are going to lose, so they now want people to vote for a third party, or not party, to take votes from the GOP.
Great strategy.

I predict the next elections a landslide victory for the GOP, no matter how many "Not Party"s the Dems create.

Seriously, where do you get this stuff?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Eddie Teach

Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2011, 05:50:57 PM
Seriously, where do you get this stuff?

You're either giving Siege too little credit or his rhetoric too much.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

fhdz

Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2011, 05:50:35 PM
I reckon that's the same with governments.

Do you have a point to which you're inexorably limping, or is this just one of those things that isn't going to go anywhere?
and the horse you rode in on

Razgovory

#108
Quote from: fahdiz on November 21, 2011, 07:41:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2011, 05:50:35 PM
I reckon that's the same with governments.

Do you have a point to which you're inexorably limping, or is this just one of those things that isn't going to go anywhere?

Not really going anywhere in particular.  Just thatI find it annoying when Politicians say "well the American people know how to be financially responsible, why can't government?"  I think most Americans have some sort of debt.  Seems silly to expect something different from our government.  We get the Gov. we deserve after all.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Sheilbh on November 18, 2011, 11:38:25 PM
Marx is just a more beardy and political George Lucas.

So the labor theory of value is like Ewoks.  Cute and superficially appealing, but really rather dumb.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

fhdz

Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2011, 07:45:51 PM
I think most Americans have some sort of debt.

Sure. I think it's also possible to realize that not all debt is equal. If you have a mortgage, for example, and thus some equity in a house, that's different than gambling debts. Having an emergency surgery and being up to your eyeballs in medical debt as a result is different from debt incurred by embarking a particularly risky business venture.

The US gov't has had debt since the Revolutionary War. But I don't think that means we can't look at various programs to see where cuts might be made, and where we have "good" debt and where we have "bad" debt. Taxes are an investment and the government are the elected stewards of that investment. There is a responsibility on their part to ensure wise expenditure of that investment, and there is responsibility on our part to ensure that good stewardship is rewarded.

Any plan to correct our financial situation which does not consider both tax increases and spending cuts is fundamentally doomed to fail.
and the horse you rode in on

Razgovory

I was under the impression that the housing bubble bursting was due in part because of individual debt.  What do you suppose the average debt for an American is?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

fhdz

Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2011, 09:02:33 PM
I was under the impression that the housing bubble bursting was due in part because of individual debt.  What do you suppose the average debt for an American is?

Is this the transition to a new point, or are we meandering again?
and the horse you rode in on

MadImmortalMan

Quote from: fahdiz on November 21, 2011, 08:29:37 PMthere is responsibility on our part to ensure that good stewardship is rewarded.

We fail at it miserably.
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

fhdz

#114
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 21, 2011, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: fahdiz on November 21, 2011, 08:29:37 PMthere is responsibility on our part to ensure that good stewardship is rewarded.

We fail at it miserably.

Oh, I agree. Both sides of the coin fail frequently.
and the horse you rode in on

Sheilbh

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 21, 2011, 08:12:08 PMSo the labor theory of value is like Ewoks.  Cute and superficially appealing, but really rather dumb.
For use in political ideology, yeah.  George Lucas is a bad comparison though, perhaps Moses is better.

In terms of history and, I imagine, economics he's a hefty figure.
Let's bomb Russia!

Capetan Mihali

Quote from: Jacob on November 18, 2011, 03:03:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on November 18, 2011, 01:04:22 PMWhich part?

That he doesn't consider making things work an inspiring ideal.

I don't think "making things work" is an inspiring ideal.  Making things work is always in the service of something.  Making things work in the pursuit of social justice, yes I find that an inspiring ideal.  Making things work in the pursuit of Mr. Doe (D-CO) and Ms. Roe (R-NJ) shaking hands for a "compromise" photo-op designed to keep the status quo straggling along for another few years, not at all.
"The internet's completely over. [...] The internet's like MTV. At one time MTV was hip and suddenly it became outdated. Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers and that can't be good for you."
-- Prince, 2010. (R.I.P.)

fhdz

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on November 22, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
I don't think "making things work" is an inspiring ideal.  Making things work is always in the service of something.  Making things work in the pursuit of social justice, yes I find that an inspiring ideal.  Making things work in the pursuit of Mr. Doe (D-CO) and Ms. Roe (R-NJ) shaking hands for a "compromise" photo-op designed to keep the status quo straggling along for another few years, not at all.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say "making things work" in the context of the USA circa late 2011, what I mean is trying to end the cycle of purchased politics which have led to complete failures of regulation and oversight on the government side and an exploitation of market volatility for short-term gain on the corporate side. I think it will take time and work to overcome these things. I don't think it's possible to eliminate greed or corruption, but you can incentivize people toward more altruistic acts and you can definitely make corruption hurt worse than it does now. Our banking system is an over-leveraged, overly-risky failure. It needs to be made to work properly. It doesn't right now.

Those are the kinds of things I mean. That to me is utilitarian and goal-oriented.
and the horse you rode in on

Razgovory

Quote from: fahdiz on November 21, 2011, 09:56:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2011, 09:02:33 PM
I was under the impression that the housing bubble bursting was due in part because of individual debt.  What do you suppose the average debt for an American is?

Is this the transition to a new point, or are we meandering again?

Same point.  What's the average household debt in the US?  Credit Cards, Mortgages,  all that combined?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

dps

Quote from: Sheilbh on November 21, 2011, 10:59:47 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 21, 2011, 08:12:08 PMSo the labor theory of value is like Ewoks.  Cute and superficially appealing, but really rather dumb.
For use in political ideology, yeah.  George Lucas is a bad comparison though, perhaps Moses is better.

In terms of history and, I imagine, economics he's a hefty figure.

So, Orson Welles?  Or Brando, except in the early part of his career?



:D