Americas Elect 2012 - the Not Party

[Razgovory]

Has anyone heard of this movement? What are the chances that it will continue and grow beyond 2012? I like the idea, but I question it's longevity.

http://www.americanselect.org/

So, the Demoncrats know they are going to lose, so they now want people to vote for a third party, or not party, to take votes from the GOP.
Great strategy.

I predict the next elections a landslide victory for the GOP, no matter how many "Not Party"s the Dems create.

Seriously, where do you get this stuff?

[Eddie Teach]

Seriously, where do you get this stuff?

You're either giving Siege too little credit or his rhetoric too much.

[fhdz]

I reckon that's the same with governments.

Do you have a point to which you're inexorably limping, or is this just one of those things that isn't going to go anywhere?

[Razgovory]

I reckon that's the same with governments.

Do you have a point to which you're inexorably limping, or is this just one of those things that isn't going to go anywhere?

Not really going anywhere in particular.  Just thatI find it annoying when Politicians say "well the American people know how to be financially responsible, why can't government?"  I think most Americans have some sort of debt.  Seems silly to expect something different from our government.  We get the Gov. we deserve after all.

[The Minsky Moment]

Marx is just a more beardy and political George Lucas.

So the labor theory of value is like Ewoks.  Cute and superficially appealing, but really rather dumb.

[fhdz]

I think most Americans have some sort of debt.

Sure. I think it's also possible to realize that not all debt is equal. If you have a mortgage, for example, and thus some equity in a house, that's different than gambling debts. Having an emergency surgery and being up to your eyeballs in medical debt as a result is different from debt incurred by embarking a particularly risky business venture.

The US gov't has had debt since the Revolutionary War. But I don't think that means we can't look at various programs to see where cuts might be made, and where we have "good" debt and where we have "bad" debt. Taxes are an investment and the government are the elected stewards of that investment. There is a responsibility on their part to ensure wise expenditure of that investment, and there is responsibility on our part to ensure that good stewardship is rewarded.

Any plan to correct our financial situation which does not consider both tax increases and spending cuts is fundamentally doomed to fail.

[Razgovory]

I was under the impression that the housing bubble bursting was due in part because of individual debt.  What do you suppose the average debt for an American is?

[fhdz]

I was under the impression that the housing bubble bursting was due in part because of individual debt.  What do you suppose the average debt for an American is?

Is this the transition to a new point, or are we meandering again?

[MadImmortalMan]

there is responsibility on our part to ensure that good stewardship is rewarded.

We fail at it miserably.

[fhdz]

there is responsibility on our part to ensure that good stewardship is rewarded.

We fail at it miserably.

Oh, I agree. Both sides of the coin fail frequently.

[Sheilbh]

So the labor theory of value is like Ewoks.  Cute and superficially appealing, but really rather dumb.

For use in political ideology, yeah.  George Lucas is a bad comparison though, perhaps Moses is better.

In terms of history and, I imagine, economics he's a hefty figure.

[Capetan Mihali]

Which part?

That he doesn't consider making things work an inspiring ideal.

I don't think "making things work" is an inspiring ideal.  Making things work is always in the service of something.  Making things work in the pursuit of social justice, yes I find that an inspiring ideal.  Making things work in the pursuit of Mr. Doe (D-CO) and Ms. Roe (R-NJ) shaking hands for a "compromise" photo-op designed to keep the status quo straggling along for another few years, not at all.

[fhdz]

I don't think "making things work" is an inspiring ideal.  Making things work is always in the service of something.  Making things work in the pursuit of social justice, yes I find that an inspiring ideal.  Making things work in the pursuit of Mr. Doe (D-CO) and Ms. Roe (R-NJ) shaking hands for a "compromise" photo-op designed to keep the status quo straggling along for another few years, not at all.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say "making things work" in the context of the USA circa late 2011, what I mean is trying to end the cycle of purchased politics which have led to complete failures of regulation and oversight on the government side and an exploitation of market volatility for short-term gain on the corporate side. I think it will take time and work to overcome these things. I don't think it's possible to eliminate greed or corruption, but you can incentivize people toward more altruistic acts and you can definitely make corruption hurt worse than it does now. Our banking system is an over-leveraged, overly-risky failure. It needs to be made to work properly. It doesn't right now.

Those are the kinds of things I mean. That to me is utilitarian and goal-oriented.

[Razgovory]

I was under the impression that the housing bubble bursting was due in part because of individual debt.  What do you suppose the average debt for an American is?

Is this the transition to a new point, or are we meandering again?

Same point.  What's the average household debt in the US?  Credit Cards, Mortgages,  all that combined?

[dps]

So the labor theory of value is like Ewoks.  Cute and superficially appealing, but really rather dumb.

For use in political ideology, yeah.  George Lucas is a bad comparison though, perhaps Moses is better.

In terms of history and, I imagine, economics he's a hefty figure.

So, Orson Welles?  Or Brando, except in the early part of his career?