Wall Street protesters: We're in for the long haul

[The Minsky Moment]

I think saying that about Greece is a gross oversimplification. Greece is not a rich country. It's a country that has been sold a "Western living" vision by a corrupt government propped up by the banks that lent it inordinate amounts of money (including, German and other EU banks). Now they are being told this lifestyle - which is still below that of the rich West - was an illusion and they have to buckle up - while they feel exploited by the "West".

The likes of Goldman Sachs or Lehman Brothers are much more to blame for this than a Greek taxpayer/voter.

How exactly is Lehman to blame, other than by the fact of its collapsing?
The notion that banks are to blame because when Greece sovereign or private borrowers sought to place debt overseas the banks agreed to facilitate the placements strikes me as a bit odd.
If any banks are to be blamed at all I would think first on the list would be the Bundesbank and the European private banks that provided trade finance for the exports to Greece, thus allowing them to run unsustainable current account deficits.
But really this is a failure of policy at the governmental level.  And top of the list are the Eurozone governments that agreed to admit Greece despite full knowledge there were not ready, but now want to run for the exits when the bill for that decision comes due.

[AnchorClanker]

Yep.  Europe really screwed up by allowing nations into the club when they were not ready. 
I understand the desire to enlarge Europe and be inclusive and all that, but they needed to really enforce the rules as well.

[Ideologue]

Say, what kind of money are we talking about here?

If I send you 5 dollars, will you put a video up of you eating a bag of Resse Cups?

If I had a webcam, shit yeah.  That's like pure profit.

Factor in the cost of the Resse Cups.

It's what I would've bought anyway.   And I could deduct them as a business expense.

[Ed Anger]

You are so gonna be screwed when the diabetus hits. Actos is around 100 bucks a month. Not to mention such drugs as Symlin, which are just ridiculous.

[Ideologue]

The classic symptoms of diabetes are polyuria (frequent urination), polydipsia (increased thirst), polyphagia (increased hunger), fatigue and weight loss.

Hrrrm.  Nah, I think it was always this way.

[Admiral Yi]

Seems like the general feeling is that little people are allowed to sink, while financial types are bailed out, and then allowed to prosper without any paying back.

I haven't read the whole thread yet.  Can I safely assume someone has already savaged this statement?

[Martinus]

Yep.  Europe really screwed up by allowing nations into the club when they were not ready. 
I understand the desire to enlarge Europe and be inclusive and all that, but they needed to really enforce the rules as well.

That's an awfully one-sided view. I think a lot of people fail to realize that pretty much everybody was not following the rules. It was hard to force Greece to act responsibly when both France and Germany didn't. Not to mention, as I already said, having more countries in wasn't just a good deal for the new entrants but the incumbents too. So new countries weren't allowed in just to be "inclusive" - this offered more markets to expand into.

The EU is (was?) a good deal for everyone - noone was doing anyone any favours.

[Razgovory]

That seems to be the fatal problem with the EU.  It has no real power to enforced it's rules.  Enforcement is left up to the individual states, so if a country wants to cheat there's nothing to stop them.  A government without the ability to coerce is not a government at all.

[Martinus]

That seems to be the fatal problem with the EU.  It has no real power to enforced it's rules.  Enforcement is left up to the individual states, so if a country wants to cheat there's nothing to stop them.  A government without the ability to coerce is not a government at all.

Uhm, that's not true. The EU has a whole lot of tools to enforce its rules and succesfully does so, frequently sueing countries to the European Court of Justice, fining them and forcing them to implement various regulations. The states are also capable of being sued by individuals harmed e.g. by the member states' failure to follow the rules. It's just that on budget/fiscal issues, there has been a political decision at the EU Commission level not to go after member states too much.

It's amazing how ignorant you Yanks can often be about the way the EU functions. You seem to think this is like some sort of UN.

Other than a possibility to arrest state officials and send in the national guard, it has pretty much the same powers as the US federal government has if a state passes laws that are, for example, in violation of the US constitution.

[garbon]

I'm glad they are about ready to leave private property and head to a city owned park.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/10/08/2011-10-08_occupy_wall_street_protesters_ready_to_push_out_of_zuccotti_park_march_union_squ.html

The growing but haphazard horde of Occupy Wall Street protesters is readying to bust out of its downtown digs - and test the NYPD's patience by squatting in a city park.

The masses clamoring for social change plan to march to Union Square at 3 p.m. Saturday - and organizers have been making noise about shifting the protest entirely to nearby Washington Square Park.

"Obviously, we've outgrown our current space; we've met our capacity," said organizer Matt Vrvilo, 20, of Portland, Ore. "It's critical to find more space. . . . We have to migrate some of our people to another location."

The protesters are now in their fourth weekend of roughing it at Zuccotti Park, a privately owned space near Ground Zero that is open to the public around the clock. If they move the bulk of their ranks to a city park, they would face mandatory curfews - and possible clashes with cops trying to enforce those laws.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said cops will accompany any protesters who gather anywhere outside of Zuccotti Park. And the commish was clear: Park laws will be enforced.

"I don't have a crystal ball," Kelly said yesterday when asked if protesters who violate park curfews will get collared.

"People will leave the park at the appropriate time," he said. "That's what I would anticipate happening."

An Occupy Wall Street spokesman challenged the NYPD and city officials with a bit of bravado. "We're nonviolent. We're not going to be intimidated:

"Bring it on," Chris Guerre, 27, of Newark, N.J., blustered. "Our lawyers are waiting like piranhas."

The back-and-forth came as the owner of Zuccotti Park said filth from the squatters has reached "unacceptable levels." Brookfield Office Properties said in a statement the park hasn't been cleaned or inspected since the protests started on Sept. 16.

"Because many of the protesters refuse to cooperate by adhering to the rules, the park has not been cleaned," the statement read. "As a result, sanitary conditions have reached unacceptable levels."

The owners want the park clear so they can bust out the powerwashers to remove the accumulated scum from the politically conscious campers.

The festival-like atmosphere at Zuccotti Park continued yesterday, with a Sarah Palin impersonator, the Naked Cowboy and 200 ultra-orthodox Jews joining the fray. As night fell, some 150 reinforcements marched over the Brooklyn Bridge, bound for the encampment and chanting: "Don't occupy Haiti! Occupy Wall Street!"

Also, what a disgusting set of individuals.

[Josephus]

Ultra Orthodox Jews on Yom Kippur?

[garbon]

Ultra Orthodox Jews on Yom Kippur?

Well presumably they were there Friday before night fell.  Article doesn't suggest that they were in the group marching across the Brooklyn Bridge.

[Neil]

Don't occupy Haiti?

[Ideologue]

Don't occupy Haiti?

Leclerc lives.

[Razgovory]

That seems to be the fatal problem with the EU.  It has no real power to enforced it's rules.  Enforcement is left up to the individual states, so if a country wants to cheat there's nothing to stop them.  A government without the ability to coerce is not a government at all.

Uhm, that's not true. The EU has a whole lot of tools to enforce its rules and succesfully does so, frequently sueing countries to the European Court of Justice, fining them and forcing them to implement various regulations. The states are also capable of being sued by individuals harmed e.g. by the member states' failure to follow the rules. It's just that on budget/fiscal issues, there has been a political decision at the EU Commission level not to go after member states too much.

It's amazing how ignorant you Yanks can often be about the way the EU functions. You seem to think this is like some sort of UN.

Other than a possibility to arrest state officials and send in the national guard, it has pretty much the same powers as the US federal government has if a state passes laws that are, for example, in violation of the US constitution.

Since you yourself said that everyone cheats, it's pretty obvious that the EU can't enforce it's own laws.  If a state gets sued, but just doesn't pay or do anything then what?  You sue them again?  Send some angry letters?  There is no mechanism for you to kick them out.  Hell, since they will often be tried in a national court a country could simply always find that the state is not violation of EU law.  I wouldn't compare the EU to the UN.  The UN at least has some teeth.  It can put a no fly zone on a country.