Parti Québécois Balkanizes

[Berkut]

There is a corruption problem, mainly having to do with over-reliance to the government for everything, but I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe it's worst here than elsewhere in Canada, be it BC or Ontario. 

That is a rather odd conclusion to draw. Why would you assume that because there is corruption in one place, that there is corruption in all places?

And I know for a fact Boston had quite a few problems with corruption during the Big Dig project.

This doesn't support your position though - there is not debate that there is corruption in places other than Quebec. But the issue is whether it is especially bad in Quebec in particular compared to ALL other places, not compared to places you've specifically picked out because they also have reported and exposed corruption.

You know about supposed corruption in Boston *because* it has been exposed. That doesn't mean that there is similar corruption in St. Louis. There might be, but to simply assume it so you can blithely dismiss the corruption in Boston is a bit lazy.

Given that there are apparently credible reports of serious corruption in Quebec, it is a fallacy to simply assume that means that the only difference between Quebec and any other place is that it has been exposed there.

[Grey Fox]

That's a whole lot of semantics to just say that there's corruption everywhere, just at different levels.

[Malthus]

It is indeed possible that corruption is just as bad in other places, but evidence lacks. What evidence we have appears to indicate that corruption is a more serious concern in Quebec, for whatever reason.

I suppose one could conclude that the authorities in Quebec are simply more vigilant: but the fact that the report that triggered this latest round was leaked, and the current gov't has declined to hold an inquiry, seems to strike against that. 

It isn't only Quebec provincial authorities that are affected. Latest news is that (federal) tax inspectors are implicated.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/new-links-found-between-tax-auditors-and-montreals-construction-industry/article2173909/

The RCMP has found a series of new and disturbing links between auditors at the Canada Revenue Agency and officials in Montreal's construction industry, including a series of joint visits to the city's casino, a golf trip, home renovations and a stalled audit, court records show.

[Neil]

Nobody will vote for a party that wants to put them in concentration camps.

Are there any like that?  Official party listed on the election ballot, I mean, not fringe movement with 3 members arming themselves for the upcoming Canadian&American invasion.

Who knows what the péquistes would do if they ever got their independent Quebec.  Marois certainly wants to create a class of subhumans.

[The Brain]

Nobody will vote for a party that wants to put them in concentration camps.

Are there any like that?  Official party listed on the election ballot, I mean, not fringe movement with 3 members arming themselves for the upcoming Canadian&American invasion.

Who knows what the péquistes would do if they ever got their independent Quebec.  Marois certainly wants to create a class of subhumans.

Create?

[viper37]

That is a rather odd conclusion to draw. Why would you assume that because there is corruption in one place, that there is corruption in all places?

Because it's been reported?  Because there is, at the international level, a corruption index by Transparency International?  Because there are currently 23 RCMP investigation on corruption that we know of, and only 2 of them are in Quebec?

This doesn't support your position though - there is not debate that there is corruption in places other than Quebec. But the issue is whether it is especially bad in Quebec in particular compared to ALL other places, not compared to places you've specifically picked out because they also have reported and exposed corruption.

My point is that there's no data to support such a broad statement as "Quebec is the most corrupt place".  If there are any hard data on this, any kind of serious study, I want to see it.

You know about supposed corruption in Boston *because* it has been exposed. That doesn't mean that there is similar corruption in St. Louis. There might be, but to simply assume it so you can blithely dismiss the corruption in Boston is a bit lazy.

The thing with corruption is that it tends to be discovered after a few years, since there are noticeable signs, and people who shouldn't have a whole lot of money suddenly spends millions in a Casino.

Given that there are apparently credible reports of serious corruption in Quebec, it is a fallacy to simply assume that means that the only difference between Quebec and any other place is that it has been exposed there.

Corporate donations are legit in the US.  If Microsoft gives 1 million$ to the Republican party is that considered corruption?
Yet, if Microsoft were to give 1 million$ to the Liberal party, it would be assumed it was corruption since it's illegal (no more than 2000$ donations made by individuals only).

[viper37]

It is indeed possible that corruption is just as bad in other places, but evidence lacks. What evidence we have appears to indicate that corruption is a more serious concern in Quebec, for whatever reason.

Maybe because we are concerned about it?

My theory is that it's been pushed too far & by the wrong government.  They've been in power for 8 years over 3 mandates, journalists are just starting to dig.
Their lame excuse is usually "we investigated but we didn't find anything".
I think that has changed now, that some journalists are really doing their work.  Without them, it would have been business as usual.  If it was the PQ in power, in its second mandate, nobody would hear about it.

I suppose one could conclude that the authorities in Quebec are simply more vigilant: but the fact that the report that triggered this latest round was leaked, and the current gov't has declined to hold an inquiry, seems to strike against that. 

Gommery syndrome, as I said.  They've declined an inquiry since the ADQ asked for it 2-3 years ago.

It isn't only Quebec provincial authorities that are affected. Latest news is that (federal) tax inspectors are implicated.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/new-links-found-between-tax-auditors-and-montreals-construction-industry/article2173909/

Nothing new here.  One tax inspector was severly beaten in Montreal last winter, following some newsreport on corruption in the agency.

Money laundering in casinos has been done for ages.  How was Las Vegas founded?  Why do the Mohawks want their own casinos?

And there's a full news coverage on this coming out on Thursday on an Fifth-Estate equivalent tv show.

I could use the same methodology used by McLeans and declare it's an Italian problem, it's in their gene.  Not many ethnic french Québécois in the lot.  Mostly Italian construction entrepreneurs, mafiosi (some now dead), and italian tax collectors.  But that would be stupid.

[viper37]

Who knows what the péquistes would do if they ever got their independent Quebec.  Marois certainly wants to create a class of subhumans.

Marois wants to be in the 1st seat, no matter what.  Concentration camps would not be in her best interest for maintaining power.
And I would say "sub-citizens" rather than subhumans.

[Malthus]

It is indeed possible that corruption is just as bad in other places, but evidence lacks. What evidence we have appears to indicate that corruption is a more serious concern in Quebec, for whatever reason.

Maybe because we are concerned about it?

My theory is that it's been pushed too far & by the wrong government.  They've been in power for 8 years over 3 mandates, journalists are just starting to dig.
Their lame excuse is usually "we investigated but we didn't find anything".
I think that has changed now, that some journalists are really doing their work.  Without them, it would have been business as usual.  If it was the PQ in power, in its second mandate, nobody would hear about it.

I suppose one could conclude that the authorities in Quebec are simply more vigilant: but the fact that the report that triggered this latest round was leaked, and the current gov't has declined to hold an inquiry, seems to strike against that. 

Gommery syndrome, as I said.  They've declined an inquiry since the ADQ asked for it 2-3 years ago.

It isn't only Quebec provincial authorities that are affected. Latest news is that (federal) tax inspectors are implicated.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/new-links-found-between-tax-auditors-and-montreals-construction-industry/article2173909/

Nothing new here.  One tax inspector was severly beaten in Montreal last winter, following some newsreport on corruption in the agency.

Money laundering in casinos has been done for ages.  How was Las Vegas founded?  Why do the Mohawks want their own casinos?

And there's a full news coverage on this coming out on Thursday on an Fifth-Estate equivalent tv show.

I could use the same methodology used by McLeans and declare it's an Italian problem, it's in their gene.  Not many ethnic french Québécois in the lot.  Mostly Italian construction entrepreneurs, mafiosi (some now dead), and italian tax collectors.  But that would be stupid.

I don't think anyone is claiming that it is a unique Quebec ethnic thing. More a matter of organized crime types being cozy with government types, which *could* happen anywhere, but for whatever historical reasons seems to be more of a problem *at this time* in Quebec.

[viper37]

I don't think anyone is claiming that it is a unique Quebec ethnic thing.

that was the core of McLeans' article, that it was the normal way to do politics for Quebecers.

More a matter of organized crime types being cozy with government types, which *could* happen anywhere, but for whatever historical reasons seems to be more of a problem *at this time* in Quebec.

Depends on how you define *at this time*.  At this time meaning today, this week?  Yeah, sure.  Meaning the decade?  I don't think so.  The century?  Certainly not.
John A. McDonald and half of his party were corrupt, they made tons of money with the Canadian confederation and selling lands to the railroad company, when it wasn't outright bribe.
So far, with the recent report on corruption, there's been no politician accused or even suspected of receiving a bribe.

Illegal financing is what mostly happens.  As I said, illegal financing is not the same in Quebec than in Ontario or the US.  What's illegal here is legal elsewhere.  Hard to tell wich is more corrupt.  If corruption was legal everywhere except one state, wich state would be the most corrupt, the one investigating corruption or the one who doesn't?

And of course, seperate from other accusations, you have the false billing business.  But it's not corruption, it's organized crime in action.  Just like credit card fraud, for wich I'm apparently the latest victim.[/quote]

[Zoupa]

Malthus, I said:

We would be more satisfied if the Toronto media would never talk about us. In any way, positive or negative.

This is your evidence that:

the consensus from the Quebec contingent was not that corruption was a problem, but that the "Toronto media" discussing corruption was.

Nowhere was it said we didn't think corruption was a problem. Nowhere was it said the real problem was anglo media talking about it.

Your bias is showing. Ergo, you're so incredibly full of shit.

[HVC]

Zoupa is a foreign agent provocateur!

[Razgovory]

Zoupa is a foreign agent provocateur!

All of Quebeci posters are.  The province is entirely inhabited by bikers and mobsters.

[Neil]

Who knows what the péquistes would do if they ever got their independent Quebec.  Marois certainly wants to create a class of subhumans.

Marois wants to be in the 1st seat, no matter what.  Concentration camps would not be in her best interest for maintaining power.
And I would say "sub-citizens" rather than subhumans.

Surely the physical elimination of a major block of Liberal voters would secure her grip on power?

[Neil]

Your bias is showing. Ergo, you're so incredibly full of shit.

The second clause doesn't flow from the first in your statement.  Someone can be biased, and yet not full of shit.  You'll have to expand your argument.