Canada to firmly re-assess its status as a British colony

[viper37]

I think you've used this one before. I'm not convinced that Montreal is unappealing if people aren't speaking French. After all, I keep visiting Montreal and the amount of French I know is very little (though increasing).

I believe it's not about knowing french, but about seeing something different. If it was the same as New York, if you felt walking on Ste-Catherine street was the same as walking the 54th of New York would you still come as often?  If people look the same, speak the same, if buildings&streets start to look alike... I fear many people will just skip over.

I don't really know what that first one means. States change over time with demographic shifts. That's not defacing something.

It is to me.  I like my culture.  It will evolve, of course.  It will change.  That doesn't mean I want it destroyed.

Doesn't bother me but then I also don't see someone refusing to speak English as a personal insult.

as I said, it's the whole Neil-ism attitude.

[viper37]

Well that's what it seems like it comes down to. You wouldn't need laws forcing people to speak a language if they just you know, wanted to do it of their own accord.

If you ignore the historical fact, of course it makes sense.

If we let the anglos have their way, it'll be back to the 40s and 50s all again.  Now why would I want that?  Why should I surrender without a fight?

[derspiess]

Gotta say I'm kinda sympathetic to viper's side on this.  Given the long history of the French in North America, it's nice to see a cocoon of Frenchiness still thriving, and it would be a shame to see it fade away.

[Malthus]

So you think the best way to support the idea that Canada is officially a bilingual country is by forcing people in Quebec to learn French? How does that work exactly?

Not forced.  You can't force anything.  But you can lightly coerce them.  Make it harder to keep a unilingual lifestyle.  Show the merits of speaking french in Quebec.
Enforce french as language of work for medium-big companies.  Not use english because one person out of 10 doesn't want to speak French.  They learn, or they work elsewhere.
Not require english profiency for low level work not in contact with tourists (mechanic, store clerk, etc).
Require all customer service to be either exclusively in french or bilingual.
Offer french immersion classes for you anglophones.
French public school mandatory for kids whose parents did not attend english schools in Canada or USA (no Commonwealth bullshit).  English private schools still available to those willing to pay.
Have history lessons focus on anglo-french relationships post 1763 so that kids might understand some of the resentment toward unilingual anglophones.

Lots of small measures, nothing dramatic. Nothing most occidental countries in the world don't already do.  Looking at the California constitution, I found this: "English is the official language of the State of California."  It seems ok for California to define its official language, but it's a racist act in Quebec to have french as our official language yet provide all kind of services in english?  Anglos are weird...

What is weird, is that the country has *two* official languages, yet Quebec insists on having *one* - despite a large anglophone minority. No other province currently employs "light coercion" to force anyone to speak any language. On the contrary, the rest of the country is supposed to be officially bilingual.

You see the imbalance most in attempting to access government services. In Ontario, everything is in French *and* English. In Quebec, only the most limited stuff is in English. You can't do anything without reading French.

Example, Ontario, Ministry of Health:

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/flhs/flsa.aspx

The right to receive services in French: French-language services are not limited to correspondence, telephone or translation procedures. The needs of the French-speaking population are taken into account in the development and implementation of programs, policies and procedures. Furthermore, services received in French must be equivalent to those offered in English, offered at the same time, and of the same quality.

Compare with the same ministry policy, Quebec Ministry of Health:

http://www.gouv.qc.ca/portail/quebec/pgs/commun/informationsutiles/linguistique/?lang=en

Linguistic Policy

The gouvernement du Québec, in order to foster application of the Charter of the French Language, which makes French the official language of Québec, and provide proper leadership in this respect, has established a policy aimed at promoting the use and quality of French.

In accordance with the Politique gouvernementale relative à l'emploi et à la qualité de la langue française dans l'Administration (policy on the use and quality of French within the government) and as a general rule, gouvernement du Québec texts, documents and communications, including those transmitted electronically, are drafted and published exclusively in French.

Why anglophones in Quebec are "weird" for wanting in Quebec the same language rights francophone minorities enjoy in (say) Ontario is beyond my understanding.

[garbon]

Well that's what it seems like it comes down to. You wouldn't need laws forcing people to speak a language if they just you know, wanted to do it of their own accord.

If you ignore the historical fact, of course it makes sense.

If we let the anglos have their way, it'll be back to the 40s and 50s all again.  Now why would I want that?  Why should I surrender without a fight?

Sure that's fair enough but are you saying that the people today who don't learn french are acting on the same, for lack of a better term, racist basis?

[garbon]

Gotta say I'm kinda sympathetic to viper's side on this.  Given the long history of the French in North America, it's nice to see a cocoon of Frenchiness still thriving, and it would be a shame to see it fade away.

Oh I agree that the French language shouldn't disappear unless of course people not interested in speaking it. I don't like the idea of coercing people into a language. Seems like that would just build resentment and actual conspiracies.

[garbon]

Lots of small measures, nothing dramatic. Nothing most occidental countries in the world don't already do.  Looking at the California constitution, I found this: "English is the official language of the State of California."  It seems ok for California to define its official language, but it's a racist act in Quebec to have french as our official language yet provide all kind of services in english?  Anglos are weird...

I don't support that. Also, I think California is a poor choice as despite it officially only having one language, many, many government services are available in a wide variety of languages.

[Jacob]

I don't pay much attention to anti-english trolls either, they seem to be a minority in Quebec.  Yet, they do get significant attention in Canada's medias.

I almost never hear about anti-English stuff going on in Quebec. Occasionally we hear about embarrassments like the no-turban soccer decision, but that's it.

The most virulent anti-Anglo attitude I come across is from you and grallon here on languish.

[viper37]

I don't support that. Also, I think California is a poor choice as despite it officially only having one language, many, many government services are available in a wide variety of languages.

I couldn't find a french public school using Google.  Private schools, sure.
A search for spanish public schools finds a newspiece by Fox complaining it costs too much.  But maybe I should harve
Hospitals are tricky.  I should search in spanish, maybe i'd find a community hospital where the staff is 100% spanish speaking and the hospital is state funded in part?

I searched for Texas, but there does not seem to public education in Spanish.  This article talks of the problems with english education to non english speakers and doesn't mention spanish only schools.  It doesn't mention spanish speaking people building fences to protect their neighborhood from english speakers either

[viper37]

The most virulent anti-Anglo attitude I come across is from you and grallon here on languish.

See?

Calling Quebec people racists & nazi-like = fair criticism of Quebec's policy (CC's quote).
Grallon and me criticising canadian policies = virulent anti-Anglo attitude.

No bias here my friend...

[Jacob]

The most virulent anti-Anglo attitude I come across is from you and grallon here on languish.

See?

Calling Quebec people racists & nazi-like = fair criticism of Quebec's policy (CC's quote).
Grallon and me criticising canadian policies = virulent anti-Anglo attitude.

No bias here my friend...

[Jacob]

Seriously Viper, you completely misconstrued my point.

[garbon]

I don't support that. Also, I think California is a poor choice as despite it officially only having one language, many, many government services are available in a wide variety of languages.

I couldn't find a french public school using Google.  Private schools, sure.
A search for spanish public schools finds a newspiece by Fox complaining it costs too much.  But maybe I should harve
Hospitals are tricky.  I should search in spanish, maybe i'd find a community hospital where the staff is 100% spanish speaking and the hospital is state funded in part?

I don't think a hospital specifically for one language group should be required though, so not sure what the point is there?

I searched for Texas, but there does not seem to public education in Spanish.  This article talks of the problems with english education to non english speakers and doesn't mention spanish only schools.  It doesn't mention spanish speaking people building fences to protect their neighborhood from english speakers either

Again you are defending your position by stating that there are bigoted English speakers in the US. Don't you see how that undermines what you are saying?

[Jacob]

It seems that viper's position is that any kind of language bigotry or shortcoming that has been perpetrated by anglophones anywhere in North America at any time, justifies the same policies in Quebec; that the aggregate of all these disparate bigotries and discrimination represents the baseline of anglo attitudes towards non anglophones; and that failing to agree with this makes you a hypocrite.

[viper37]

I don't think a hospital specifically for one language group should be required though, so not sure what the point is there?

English-Quebecers have their own hospital. English only.  Sometimes, if you're lucky, you'll have a bilingual nurse.  They don't tolerate officially bilingual hospitals.

This costs a lot, doubling everything.  Why not bilingual hospitals, at least for the big, news ones?

Again you are defending your position by stating that there are bigoted English speakers in the US. Don't you see how that undermines what you are saying?

So, in your opinion, it is bigotry that a state does not offer public education and health care in every language possible?