Canada to firmly re-assess its status as a British colony

[Malthus]

Again, I didn't say that they couldn't complain.

So, the point of your stance is that they CAN complain, but if they do, you question why they had the temerity to immigrate there in the first place? 

And as for treating all citizens alike, well if all instruction in the public schools is in one particular language, then they are all being treated alike.  It seems to me that you are in effect arguing for special treatment for immigrants, not equality.

I treat all alike: all beggars and all millionares caught sleeping under bridges or in parks are whipped.

[Surface "equality" can be anything but, where individual circumstances differ]

[Malthus]

Malthus, you are interpreting the UN declaration giving parent a "prior right" to choose "the kind" of education given to their children as the ability to force governments to provide a certain type of education and particularly a requirement that the government fund education in language choosen by the parent.  With respect your interpretation is not very compelling.

That is even more broad than your original contention that if there is a) a signficant minority and b) they want to be taught in their own language then that ought to be funding.  By your interpretation of the UN declaration anyone can choose a language of instruction.  And not only the language.  Surely if "kind of education" means choice of language it also means choice of curriculum.  Under your model the state would have to find individual learning programs for each student according to the wishes of each parent.

That interpretation is simply untenable.

A more reasonable interpretation is that parents may choose which school their kids will attend.  Which is exactly what happens In Quebec.

I think you have run out of ground on this one.

Yeah, your interpretation which you made up is sure untenible.  As I suggested in my post, this has to be read together with other sources to tease out its meaning - namely, those considering the nature of linguistic rights. I linked to that stuff before, but clearly, there is no point, as you have made up your mind. 

And parents may *not* "choose which school their kids will attend" in Quebec, if they are immigrants. Which is where this argument started in the first place.

[dps]

Again, I didn't say that they couldn't complain.

So, the point of your stance is that they CAN complain, but if they do, you question why they had the temerity to immigrate there in the first place? 

Actually, in the particular case under discussion, what I would question is their judgement.

But in general, yeah, I think that, "Hey, nobody forced you to come here" isn't an unreasonable way to respond.

[crazy canuck]

And parents may *not* "choose which school their kids will attend" in Quebec, if they are immigrants. Which is where this argument started in the first place.

Sure they can.  They can choose to put them anywhere they wish.   Your problem is that all option are not funded equally.  But if the funding was such a problem why has there been no Constitutional challenge.  Surely some enterprising class action lawyer out there has considered the probability of success of such a thing.

[The Minsky Moment]

No, I'm saying that linguisic rights exist and are recognized,

That's seeking safety in vagueness.  Sure there are "linguistic rights" - for example, the right of a private citizens to speak whatever language they wish with other private citizens in a private setting.  Or the right to instruct others in languages.  And of course those rights are recognized. 

The question you have raised is whether those rights extend to the right to have publicly funded schools instructing in a given language, and I have not seen any convincing argument that such a right exists outside of positive law.

However, the basis of Canada's union is of peoples as well as provinces. That's why the "right" to French is extended throughout the country and not just in Quebec. So, your analysis is flawed from the start.

The 1867 act is clearly phrased as a union of provinces and that Act delegates educational powers to the provinces.

[viper37]

You would have to ask those who forbid French education in the US and Canada.

Hey you can get a French education in the US if you want to pay for it.

After the civil war in Louisiana, French education was forbidden.  Many states of New England also forbid French education after the influx of French Canadian immigrants.
The situation has been reversed since then, and there are of course private schools, but I think some public schools offer French immersion too.

Once again, over a hundred years ago.  Can you at least snivel like a bitch about more contemporary issues?

the discussion was about French being forbidden in the past, hence the low number of french speakers in North America.
And I was not bitching, I was stating a fact.
I know you hate the historical truth, so I'll leave you to your usual ramblings of everyone being inferior to you, until such time as you are willing to discuss seriously without trolling.

[viper37]

I agree that there are aspects of Quebec's language policy that seem counterproductive and self-defeating from the POV of seeking to create a modern, economically vibrant society, but that is just my opinion as an outsider.

when it comes to having counterproductive and self defeating policies to create a moderne, economically vibrant society, there are things much, much worst than that.

The language laws are merely there to enforce respect by a majority of outsiders who feel they shouldn't respect us.  There's an historic reason, and reading Malthus and Neil posts just reinforce my views that they are still a necessary evil, as their creator saw them.

[Neil]

I know you hate the historical truth, so I'll leave you to your usual ramblings of everyone being inferior to you.

I don't hate the historical truth.  My team won, after all.  You're the one whose side is trying to refight 1763.

[viper37]

I don't hate the historical truth.  My team won, after all.  You're the one whose side is trying to refight 1763.

Read Minsky's post, they will enlighten you.

[Razgovory]

the discussion was about French being forbidden in the past, hence the low number of french speakers in North America.
And I was not bitching, I was stating a fact.
I know you hate the historical truth, so I'll leave you to your usual ramblings of everyone being inferior to you, until such time as you are willing to discuss seriously without trolling.

There wouldn't be very many French Speakers in North America even if French were not periodically forbidden.

[Neil]

I don't hate the historical truth.  My team won, after all.  You're the one whose side is trying to refight 1763.

Read Minsky's post, they will enlighten you.

Minsky is a lawyer, and an American one at that.  He's not to be trusted.

[dps]

The language laws are merely there to enforce respect by a majority of outsiders who feel they shouldn't respect us. 

But it would appear that the language laws cause people to have less respect for you. 

[Valmy]

There wouldn't be very many French Speakers in North America even if French were not periodically forbidden.

Yep, outside of a few enclaves in Louisiana and New England (which still limp on I understand).  We never forbad German or Yiddish and they are rarely spoken outside of a few enclaves either.  That is the way of the USA.  Do not move here if you plan on speaking something other than English a few generations out.

[Valmy]

The language laws are merely there to enforce respect by a majority of outsiders who feel they shouldn't respect us. 

But it would appear that the language laws cause people to have less respect for you. 

The ones that are the most ridiculous are the ones least necessary IMO.  The whole regulation of French on signs and stuff.

[Razgovory]

There wouldn't be very many French Speakers in North America even if French were not periodically forbidden.

Yep, outside of a few enclaves in Louisiana and New England (which still limp on I understand).  We never forbad German or Yiddish and they are rarely spoken outside of a few enclaves either.  That is the way of the USA.  Do not move here if you plan on speaking something other than English a few generations out.

Actually, the US did forbid German education for a brief period.