Canada to firmly re-assess its status as a British colony

[viper37]

He said banning publicly funding it. 

No, he said banning.

banning publicly funded schools.  And again, it's science fiction, even in an independant Quebec.

[Valmy]

He said banning publicly funding it. 

No, he said banning.

Even if Quebec was to forbid public english education to everyone

[crazy canuck]

It would be a clear violation of the Charter just as the first Language Bill was.

We could work around it, like the Canadian provinces did for many years, without any kind of problems.
We could merge the english School Boards with the French ones, deprive them of resources, make life tough for them.  That's not a clear violation of the Charter.

But I just don't see it happening.

You are backtracking now.  Originally you said even if the government banned people from learning English it would not be a problem. Clearly such a ban would be.

As I said I dont have as much of an issue with government deciding on funding issues.  That is maybe what you meant.

[Malthus]

Malthus, I am trying to put your argument in the context of BC.  The province has sole jurisdiction to allocate resources to the educational system.  It funds public schools 100% and it provides a subsidy to private schools so long as the private schools meet the curriculum set by the Province.

I am not sure how that is any different from what is happening in Quebec.  The only difference is that Quebec and BC set different language components and perhaps the curriculum differs in other non relevant ways as well.

Now that Oex and Viper have explained that my initial concerns were not accurate, I am not sure what the issue is.  Why Can't a government make choices regarding resource allocation and promote a particular set of cultural values - isnt it the role of government to make resource allocation decisions amongst competiting interests?

Funding only those schools teaching in one of the two official languages where there are major populations who speak both is of concern for the same reason that a province deciding to fund the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church would be of concern. It is supporting one population group of citizens over another, using common tax money to do so.

[I know this is not what is at stake in Quebec, where in fact both are funded - it is the restrictions on choice of which one to join which is of issue. But the principle is the same].

Obviously, governments make some sorts of choices between competing groups all the time. Some types of groups, such as religious groups, are privileged in that the government *not* acting even-handedly between 'em raises concerns (this is addressed in the US by the Establishment Clause]. I'm saying that those in Quebec have a legitimate point that linguistic groups are also such a group.

[viper37]

It would be a clear violation of the Charter just as the first Language Bill was.

We could work around it, like the Canadian provinces did for many years, without any kind of problems.
We could merge the english School Boards with the French ones, deprive them of resources, make life tough for them.  That's not a clear violation of the Charter.

But I just don't see it happening.

You are backtracking now.  Originally you said even if the government banned people from learning English it would not be a problem. Clearly such a ban would be.

As I said I dont have as much of an issue with government deciding on funding issues.  That is maybe what you meant.

I'm not going to look back, but if I said that, I made a mistake.  I was obviously refering to public education.

[crazy canuck]

Funding only those schools teaching in one of the two official languages where there are major populations who speak both is of concern for the same reason that a province deciding to fund the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church would be of concern. It is supporting one population group of citizens over another, using common tax money to do so.

Who gets to decide what constitutes a "major" population such that the government must provide x funding toward it. That decision seems to fall squarely within the jurisdiction of the Provincial government.  I think the issue of whether the language is an official language or not is a red herring.  There is no suggestion the Official Languages Act is being violated and if it was then there are remedies for that.  Students could sue for 500,000 for not being able to order 7up in English in the school cafeteria.

[Malthus]

Funding only those schools teaching in one of the two official languages where there are major populations who speak both is of concern for the same reason that a province deciding to fund the Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church would be of concern. It is supporting one population group of citizens over another, using common tax money to do so.

Who gets to decide what constitutes a "major" population such that the government must provide x funding toward it. That decision seems to fall squarely within the jurisdiction of the Provincial government.  I think the issue of whether the language is an official language or not is a red herring.  There is no suggestion the Official Languages Act is being violated and if it was then there are remedies for that.  Students could sue for 500,000 for not being able to order 7up in English in the school cafeteria.

Seems a bit of a red herring of a problem to me - devising rules as to what constitutes a "major population" for the purposes of language and education ought not to be impossible, after all the Canadian Constitution Act already requires such an exercise.

23 ...

(3) The right of citizens of Canada under subsections (1) and (2) to have their children receive primary and secondary school instruction in the language of the English or French linguistic minority population of a province

(a)  applies wherever in the province the number of children of citizens who have such a right is sufficient to warrant the provision to them out of public funds of minority language instruction; and 

(b)  includes, where the number of those children so warrants, the right to have them receive that instruction in minority language educational facilities provided out of public funds. 

[crazy canuck]

Ok, then it seems we are saying the same thing. So long as they stay onside their constitutional obligations - which they appear to be doing - what is the problem? The Province gets to make a judgment about funding in the first instance and that decision can be challenged if it breaches the Constitutional requirement.

[grumbler]

I'm not going to look back, but if I said that, I made a mistake.  I was obviously refering to public education.

That is what you said you were referring to.  It was always clear to me, but your use of the phrase "banning public education in one language" was perhaps unfortunate when you didn't mean banning (which means to make it unlawful), but rather "failure to fund."

[Malthus]

Ok, then it seems we are saying the same thing. So long as they stay onside their constitutional obligations - which they appear to be doing - what is the problem? The Province gets to make a judgment about funding in the first instance that that decision can be challenged if it breaches the Constitutional requirement.

It addresses your original position, and that of others such as Minsky and Valmy, that payment out of government funds for minority language education is not any sort of "right",  provincial governments ought to be able to direct educational spending as they see fit, and it is not possible to determine what constitutes a sufficiently large minority group. Of course it's a "right", not only are such "rights" commonplace, they are imbedded in our constitution.

My complaint is with the way both the constitution act and the Quebec law is drafted to carefully exclude the rights of recent immigrants to choose which linguistic group they wish to be classified as.

(1) Citizens of Canada

(a)  whose first language learned and still understood is that of the English or French linguistic minority population of the province in which they reside, or 
(b)  who have received their primary school instruction in Canada in English or French and reside in a province where the language in which they received that instruction is the language of the English or French linguistic minority population of the province, 

have the right to have their children receive primary and secondary school instruction in that language in that province.

I can think of no principled reason for this sort of pettifogging, which was inserted entirely to appease Quebec.

Tangentally, I also dislike limiting the languages to English and French. But that objection isn't relevant here.

[Valmy]

Tangentally, I also dislike limiting the languages to English and French. But that objection isn't relevant here.

Wow.

Talk about counter-productive.

[Malthus]

Tangentally, I also dislike limiting the languages to English and French. But that objection isn't relevant here.

Wow.

Talk about counter-productive.

Huh? Why? If some significant minority of the population uses a language other than English or French, what harm is caused by it, or educating kids in it? Some Euros seem to survive just fine with several languages, like Switzerland - it has four official languages.

Anyway, I have yet to hear some sort of retraction about there being no such thing as an "right" to public funds being used for education in a minority official language. 

[Barrister]

Anyways, I agree with Malthus.

We must extend bilingual Ukrainian education across the country!

[crazy canuck]

Tangentally, I also dislike limiting the languages to English and French. But that objection isn't relevant here.

Wow.

Talk about counter-productive.

Huh? Why? If some significant minority of the population uses a language other than English or French, what harm is caused by it, or educating kids in it? Some Euros seem to survive just fine with several languages, like Switzerland - it has four official languages.

The why of your question is for the consideration of the political process. 

[crazy canuck]

Anyways, I agree with Malthus.

We must extend bilingual Ukrainian education across the country!

I knew the horrible hypothetical wouldnt take long to be found.