Breaking News - Major Terrorist Attack In Oslo, Norway

[Jacob]

Yeah that supposedly happens in New York and other big American cities.  I think it is an illusion those cultures have been profoundly changed from their roots because of their interaction with the people around them.

That's alright. Cultures change all the time.

[HVC]

You do have public enforcers to require that signs and labels be in French, which strikes me as enforced multiculturalism.

That's not forced multiculturalism, that's french inferiority complex.

[Jacob]

Personally I think it is rather pointless to discuss what nobody is criticizing (The Peking Golden Lion Restaurant, the one with the clean toilets and the certificate certifying it clean) and to move on to what is being criticized and what ABB identified as the problem; not good quality indian food; but rather the rash willingness to abandon the bedrock of western society.

Who is arguing that we abandon the bedrock of Western society?

[Valmy]

That's alright. Cultures change all the time.

Of course it is alright, it is a profound positive good.  It is what the melting pot is all about.

[Razgovory]

You do have public enforcers to require that signs and labels be in French, which strikes me as enforced multiculturalism.

That's not forced multiculturalism, that's french inferiority complex.

Same thing in this case.

[Jacob]

I'd rather point out that what is being objected to is not the brown people living next door, it is the permissive attitude from his own society which permits the brown people next door to maintain an identity of otherness vis a vis the society around them meaning that they don't assimilate generation after generation assisted by the helpful social worker which assists them in not assimilating and the immigration system which permits them to import spouses for the legal residents each generation from pakistan (as happens in norway). These are not your 3rd generation american style immigrant that is 1/8 creol, 3/8ths japanese, 1/4 Irish and 1/4 Lebanese.

We are agreed that the poor record of integrating immigrants in Europe is a significant social problem. One that should be addressed.

Where we differ seems to be in our analysis of the causes of the poor integration and the likely most effective solutions.

I'd expect we can also agree that killing nearly 100 innocent people to draw attention to your personal preference for solving social problems is an abomination, just as I expect we can agree that attempting to murder cartoonists for drawing unflattering images of your favourite religious figure is unacceptable.

[Jacob]

And even then it's not a static stratification. To an outsider it might seem that little Italy (or Portugal, or whatever) remains an unchanged section of town. But that's not true. Kids and grand kids move out to other parts of the city as they start to identify themselves as "Canadian" over what their cultural heritage is. As they leave they're replaced by new immigrants. They ("we" really, since I'm a kid of immigrants) join the mainstream culture soon enough. Multi Culturalism, as I see it, isn't permanent tribalism as some try to portray here, but more of a buffer between old and new with a constant turnover.

Exactly.

[Martinus]

Yup. What the conservatives and nationalists do not understand is that you cannot function without immigrants these days, at least not if you want to maintain the kind of quality of living that we have in the West.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I don't buy that argument at all.  At least not in an American context--I can't say for sure about Europe, but I doubt it's true there either.  The countries that depend on immigrants to maintain the native population's standard of living and lifestyle are the Arab oil states, where almost all the actual physical labor is done by immigrants.

Well, you could say that America is willing to spend a lot of money on its military/security (at the cost of stuff like free education, healthcare or social welfare) to "keep the darkies out" as it were - again, something Europe is not willing to do either.

The fact is that in the modern world, the "brown" immigrants are the previous ages' huddled masses who work for us and are kept outside - we can't do this indefinitely, unless we want to invest a lot in "police" forces, like you guys do (not to mention I am not sure it is a good idea).

[Martinus]

Gee, that's about what Fred Phelp's bunch say about homosexuality.   Didn't figure you as one to see things his way.

You do realize we are talking about chattel slavery of millions of people over the course of centuries right?  And the comparison you are making is homosexuality?

And any case I was joking.  But still a nation that horribly mistreats millions of people can hardly expect to never see a violent reaction to its own violent oppression.

Yeah. People forget that, all things considered, *sometimes* a violent response *is* morally justified.

[Valmy]

Where we differ seems to be in our analysis of the causes of the poor integration and the likely most effective solutions.

I have a question for you that has puzzled me a bit wth regards to solutions to this Euro issue.  If the purpose of Denmark is not as a homeland for the Danish ethnicity what is it?  What sort of universal values of Denmark would I have to embrace to be a Dane?

[Martinus]

Seems to me your stance is that if there is a general rule, no matter how absurd, it ought to be enforced on everyone.

Well, I'm kinda attached to that weird concept of people having equal rights.

[Valmy]

Well, you could say that America is willing to spend a lot of money on its military/security (at the cost of stuff like free education, healthcare or social welfare) to "keep the darkies out" as it were - again, something Europe is not willing to do either.

We do not really strive to keep the darkies out...but we pretend to.  Which is classic America really.

But I am not sure even in this charade our military and security forces are raised for that purpose.  Where did you get this idea from?

[Jacob]

Yes, that is precisely the point I'm trying to make here. When I was a kid growing up in Palo Alto California we had pinatas, wore green on st paddy's day, celebrated hanuka and christmas in school, learned stories about anansi the spider etc. While on the other hand we learned about the founding fathers and their values. The american approach to identity is not nebulous it is clear, if you adopt america's fundamental values you become an american. One of the problems that Europe is facing is that it's countries are not based on values, they are based on ethnicity. Europe's borders are where the invading armies were stopped and each side ethnically cleansed their side of the border.

I think this is a succinct summary of the problem. I'm unconvinced that the answer is along the lines of what ABB apparently proposes.

[Malthus]

That doesn't sound anything like a promise that what the immigrant finds important will be retained.

I don't see any such promise made under Canadian "multiculturalism".

The promise isn't that what is important to the immigrant will be retained - the promise is that the immigrant will be allowed, within the law, to do what he or she wants. If the culture is important to the immigrant, he or she can retain it his or herself. Or not.

I think to a large extent the current kerfuffle in Europe is about folks there fearing losing their own cultural uniqueness, and seeking some sort of government enforcement of that. Which is more or less the opposite of "multiculturalism".

[ulmont]

That doesn't sound anything like a promise that what the immigrant finds important will be retained.

It's a promise that the federal government will not substantially burden religion - even through general laws - unless it is the least restrictive means of furthering a compelling governmental interest. 

That's a pretty significant promise to allow the immigrant to retain their religion.