Breaking News - Major Terrorist Attack In Oslo, Norway

[dps]

Yup. What the conservatives and nationalists do not understand is that you cannot function without immigrants these days, at least not if you want to maintain the kind of quality of living that we have in the West.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I don't buy that argument at all.  At least not in an American context--I can't say for sure about Europe, but I doubt it's true there either.  The countries that depend on immigrants to maintain the native population's standard of living and lifestyle are the Arab oil states, where almost all the actual physical labor is done by immigrants.

[Razgovory]

See, Slargos isn't the only poster here who thinks murdering innocent civilians is fine as long as it's done for a political ideal you agree with.

I we don't think of it as murder, yeah, lots of us are willing to kill innocent civilians.  We call it "collateral damage".

[dps]

See, Slargos isn't the only poster here who thinks murdering innocent civilians is fine as long as it's done for a political ideal you agree with.

Those who were silent in the face of the injustices of Slavery were complicit and thus guilty

Gee, that's about what Fred Phelp's bunch say about homosexuality.   Didn't figure you as one to see things his way.

[Valmy]

Gee, that's about what Fred Phelp's bunch say about homosexuality.   Didn't figure you as one to see things his way.

You do realize we are talking about chattel slavery of millions of people over the course of centuries right?  And the comparison you are making is homosexuality?

And any case I was joking.  But still a nation that horribly mistreats millions of people can hardly expect to never see a violent reaction to its own violent oppression.

[Solmyr]

And even then it's not a static stratification. To an outsider it might seem that little Italy (or Portugal, or whatever) remains an unchanged section of town. But that's not true. Kids and grand kids move out to other parts of the city as they start to identify themselves as "Canadian" over what their cultural heritage is. As they leave they're replaced by new immigrants. They ("we" really, since I'm a kid of immigrants) join the mainstream culture soon enough. Multi Culturalism, as I see it, isn't permanent tribalism as some try to portray here, but more of a buffer between old and new with a constant turnover.

That's not how it works in Europe, though. Here, permanent tribalism without possibility of joining the mainstream culture is the norm, and seen as the embodiment of multiculturalism.

[crazy canuck]

When have I ever said that?

Near the beginning of the thread.  You said that killing for a political purpose could be justified but you drew the line at killing kids.  I asked you at what age someone becomes a valid target for murder.  I dont think you ever gave me an answer.

[crazy canuck]

And even then it's not a static stratification. To an outsider it might seem that little Italy (or Portugal, or whatever) remains an unchanged section of town. But that's not true. Kids and grand kids move out to other parts of the city as they start to identify themselves as "Canadian" over what their cultural heritage is. As they leave they're replaced by new immigrants. They ("we" really, since I'm a kid of immigrants) join the mainstream culture soon enough. Multi Culturalism, as I see it, isn't permanent tribalism as some try to portray here, but more of a buffer between old and new with a constant turnover.

That's not how it works in Europe, though. Here, permanent tribalism without possibility of joining the mainstream culture is the norm, and seen as the embodiment of multiculturalism.

Yep, its going to be a cold day in hell before you get the Fench/Germans, Swedes/Finns, Poles/anyone else thinking they are the same tribe.

[Barrister]

And even then it's not a static stratification. To an outsider it might seem that little Italy (or Portugal, or whatever) remains an unchanged section of town. But that's not true. Kids and grand kids move out to other parts of the city as they start to identify themselves as "Canadian" over what their cultural heritage is. As they leave they're replaced by new immigrants. They ("we" really, since I'm a kid of immigrants) join the mainstream culture soon enough. Multi Culturalism, as I see it, isn't permanent tribalism as some try to portray here, but more of a buffer between old and new with a constant turnover.

That's not how it works in Europe, though. Here, permanent tribalism without possibility of joining the mainstream culture is the norm, and seen as the embodiment of multiculturalism.

Tell that to Sarkozy.

[Slargos]

When have I ever said that?

Near the beginning of the thread.  You said that killing for a political purpose could be justified but you drew the line at killing kids.  I asked you at what age someone becomes a valid target for murder.  I dont think you ever gave me an answer.

I didn't say that I could justify it [in fact, the very notion of murdering children is abhorrent to me], but that it could be justified from a rational standpoint. There is a subtle difference.

And I have to disagree with myself anyway. It's always possible to justify whatever you choose. Kids. Women. Wounded. It's just norms that protect them.

Would I choose the same victims if I decided to make a grand standing like this? I don't know. I hope not. But I can certainly see why he did.[/i]

[Solmyr]

And even then it's not a static stratification. To an outsider it might seem that little Italy (or Portugal, or whatever) remains an unchanged section of town. But that's not true. Kids and grand kids move out to other parts of the city as they start to identify themselves as "Canadian" over what their cultural heritage is. As they leave they're replaced by new immigrants. They ("we" really, since I'm a kid of immigrants) join the mainstream culture soon enough. Multi Culturalism, as I see it, isn't permanent tribalism as some try to portray here, but more of a buffer between old and new with a constant turnover.

That's not how it works in Europe, though. Here, permanent tribalism without possibility of joining the mainstream culture is the norm, and seen as the embodiment of multiculturalism.

Yep, its going to be a cold day in hell before you get the Fench/Germans, Swedes/Finns, Poles/anyone else thinking they are the same tribe.

Incidentally, that's why I support the EU's economic integration but oppose its political integration - a European multinational federal state will never work without a totalitarian centralized regime a la USSR.

[Valmy]

Tell that to Sarkozy.

France is also a bit of an exception.  They created a new ethnicity based on the ideals of the French revolution and then set about destroying the ethnicities that had existed before.  This new concept of nationalism was remarkably open to anybody willing to accept those values and a bit histrionically hostile to those who did not.

But the old ethnic identities in France still flare up from time to time.

[Malthus]

It is a significant difference, though, in terms of there being imo a stronger onus against allowing a practice that is based on learned behaviour than a practice that is based in inherent/inborn behaviour.

Incidentally, my main beef with halal/kosher slaughter is that, apparently, the society has decided that this kind of slaughter actually is harmful - by prohibiting it to anyone else except the Muslims and the Jews. I oppose exceptionalism - if the society decided that slittering animals' throats is fine, it should be allowed for everybody.

By way of example, a society which would allow anal sex, but only between two men (and not a man and a woman) would be equally silly.

In your example, wouldn't you be agitating for allowing every consenting adult to have anal sex if they wish, rather than agitating to enforce the ban on gay men as well? 

Seems to me your stance is that if there is a general rule, no matter how absurd, it ought to be enforced on everyone.

Of course this has an air of unreality about it, because as far as I know, the right to slaughter by throat-cutting isn't one that anyone else wishes to have.

[Barrister]

And even then it's not a static stratification. To an outsider it might seem that little Italy (or Portugal, or whatever) remains an unchanged section of town. But that's not true. Kids and grand kids move out to other parts of the city as they start to identify themselves as "Canadian" over what their cultural heritage is. As they leave they're replaced by new immigrants. They ("we" really, since I'm a kid of immigrants) join the mainstream culture soon enough. Multi Culturalism, as I see it, isn't permanent tribalism as some try to portray here, but more of a buffer between old and new with a constant turnover.

That's not how it works in Europe, though. Here, permanent tribalism without possibility of joining the mainstream culture is the norm, and seen as the embodiment of multiculturalism.

Yep, its going to be a cold day in hell before you get the Fench/Germans, Swedes/Finns, Poles/anyone else thinking they are the same tribe.

Incidentally, that's why I support the EU's economic integration but oppose its political integration - a European multinational federal state will never work without a totalitarian centralized regime a la USSR.

I've brought up a couple of examples of multicultural success in Europe only to be told they are exceptions, and then am told how multiculturalism can NEVER work in Europe.

Sure it can.  It has hardly been tried is the problem.

[Viking]

Tell that to Sarkozy.

In Sarkozy's case each immigrant generation married a frenchman/frenchwoman and assymilating. Anecdotes do not trends make. But, not all immigrants are equal. A Hungarian or a Greek (in Sarkozy's case) are much much easier to assymilate than a turk or a berber. In my case as and Icelander I'm pre-assymilated in Scandinavia as I'm considered one of "us". Europe has through history had a constant flow of people and refugees for centuries, usually moving to a polity more tolerant of their religion/politics. The Mayflower is just a continuation of an old tradition. This tradition is, however, a tradition of moving towards similarity rather than towards difference. Hugenot Protestants would move to Protestant England, English Catholics would move to France.

The concept of multi culturalism was invented in the 1960's in concert with post-modernism and cultural relativism and has a common set of assumptions (yes I know, post-modernism using meta-narratives, how droll). This happened at the same time as a new form of immigrant arrived in western europe, the guest worker. Never intended to be assimilated he was not and still has not.

[Razgovory]

Tell that to Sarkozy.

France is also a bit of an exception.  They created a new ethnicity based on the ideals of the French revolution and then set about destroying the ethnicities that had existed before.  This new concept of nationalism was remarkably open to anybody willing to accept those values and a bit histrionically hostile to those who did not.

But the old ethnic identities in France still flare up from time to time.

I'd consider the war of the Vendee a bit more then a "bit histrionically hostile".  It was a act of Genocide that the would make the Soviets proud (and in fact they used it as an example of what a revolutionary regime should do).