Breaking News - Major Terrorist Attack In Oslo, Norway

[Jacob]

Are you disingenuous enough to believe that one doesn't proceed from the other?  Or are you actually incapable of seeing it?

I don't see it, because it isn't actually the case. Your slippery slope fallacy is just that, a fallacy.

[Jacob]

I was going to elaborate more on the subject but frankly it's like beating my head against a wall, unconstructive and not very amusing.

You won't elaborate, but you'll still complain that people aren't listening?

Again, it sounds more like your complaint is that people aren't convinced by your arguments, rather than that you don't have an opportunity to voice them.

[Martinus]

Apparently, the guy copy/pasted whole passages from Ted Kaczynski's manifesto.

[Berkut]

I think we do need some definitions here, since everybody seems to have his own definition of multi-culturalism. The thing is that it is a word with alot of associations to it outside of it's definition. I'm going to make a stab at it..


Multi culturalism is a set of ideas and attitudes which include
- the idea that no culture is superior to another culture
- the idea that inherited culture is vital so self image and self worth and must be cultivated
- the idea that assimilation is an act of hegemonic cultural repression
- the idea that one's own successful; since non failed culture has developed multi culturalism in it's own sphere; seeks to impose hegemony on other cultures

This is very much a case of the ideas of the '68ers with their post-modernism and cultural relativism and rejection of truth and Truth as mere constructs surviving into today. Obviously I am against it.

The US melting pot works precisely because you can bring your own food, your own god and your own music, but you will damn sure adopt the american dream and the values of the enlightenment. Multi-culturalism and cultural relativism means that societies like Norway cannot insist that immigrants adopt the norwegian dream and cannot insist that immigrants adopt the values of the enlightenment because we cannot, as a society, assert that our values are better than theirs.

Yeah, no.

That's not quite what multiculturalism means, IMO.

It means within a framework of basic liberal Western values (i.e. respect for individual rights, so no matter what your culture says, you don't get to abrogate another person's rights) the following applies:

- Your cultural identity has value and should only change at whatever pace you think appropriate (which includes not having to change at all).
- As a society, we respect different cultural identities (which may include support for various cultural functions, if that's how respect works in your particular society).

That's it, basically.

Then it is kind of meaningless, isn't it?

Is there anyone out there within the Western world that would actually disagree with that? You are just labeling pretty basic liberal western values as "multiculturalism". Is there some problem in the West with non-multicutluralists demanding that we force other cultures to change at some pace others do not feel is appropriate? How would that even manifest itself in a political sense?

[Slargos]

I was going to elaborate more on the subject but frankly it's like beating my head against a wall, unconstructive and not very amusing.

You won't elaborate, but you'll still complain that people aren't listening?

Again, it sounds more like your complaint is that people aren't convinced by your arguments, rather than that you don't have an opportunity to voice them.

No, I have plenty opportunity to voice them. I do it right here, for instance. However, this is a platform that doesn't matter. Nor does a paper with a national circulation of 2000.

The argument "start your own newspaper" is disingenious, but you probably realize that and simply use it to mock or infuriate me.

This is pretty frustrating, and I can certainly see why this guy would snap like this.

You step on people often enough, you'd better make sure they're never in a position to step on you because it's going to get very ugly.

[Razgovory]

Why don't you buy a large wooden box of soap, empty the soap out, take the box to front of the parliament building, and expose your views.  See how ugly things can get.

[Martinus]

The argument "start your own newspaper" is disingenious

Why the hell is it disingenuous? The idea that newspapers are to be some sort of neutral hyde parks is outdated and simply does not hold water. They are businesses which cater to the expectations of their customers (i.e. readers) and sell them opinions they want to hear. Why should people who run them or work in them should spend their time and money on doing things they do not want doing nor their readers apparently want to read about? As long as they do not lie and do not break the law, they are within their right to print or refuse to print anything they want.

[dps]

The people who subscribe to similar views, using similar reasoning ought to engage in a bit of self-reflection; ideally not focused on the ways the subtle shades of difference in their bigotry could be argued to make the glaring similarities irrelevant.

So by this logic, in 1859, in the wake of John Brown's raid, should abolishionists have re-evaluated their views and decided that human chattel slavery was OK?

[Martinus]

Is there anyone out there within the Western world that would actually disagree with that?

Of course there is, and in Europe such people are, if not a majority, then a vocal minority. You have to understand that you Yanks have a very different view on this thing than a lot of Euros.

[Razgovory]

The people who subscribe to similar views, using similar reasoning ought to engage in a bit of self-reflection; ideally not focused on the ways the subtle shades of difference in their bigotry could be argued to make the glaring similarities irrelevant.

So by this logic, in 1859, in the wake of John Brown's raid, should abolishionists have re-evaluated their views and decided that human chattel slavery was OK?

Some probably did.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The Ottoman Empire was multicultural; in that Christians, Muslims and Jews lived under different jurisdictions. I would not describe a country such as the UK or USA as multicultural..............merely tolerant.

[Ideologue]

The people who subscribe to similar views, using similar reasoning ought to engage in a bit of self-reflection; ideally not focused on the ways the subtle shades of difference in their bigotry could be argued to make the glaring similarities irrelevant.

So by this logic, in 1859, in the wake of John Brown's raid, should abolishionists have re-evaluated their views and decided that human chattel slavery was OK?

John Brown.

[The Brain]

Didn't Germany admit that multikulti was a failure???

[dps]

The Ottoman Empire was multicultural; in that Christians, Muslims and Jews lived under different jurisdictions. I would not describe a country such as the UK or USA as multicultural..............merely tolerant.

I think that what Jacob calls "multiculturalism" is what most Americans would simply call "tolerance".  "Multiculturalism" generally means something else.

[Martinus]

Didn't Germany admit that multikulti was a failure???

What about schwulenlesben?