Breaking News - Major Terrorist Attack In Oslo, Norway

[OttoVonBismarck]

So what was with some Islamicists apparently claiming responsibility for this when they caught the guy and he was actually a far right anti-muslim sort?

It's pretty common but often falls under the radar. Anytime there is a major terrorist attack there almost always multiple groups that claim responsibility, all of the groups other than the actual perpetrators are just doing it to get attention. Typically the intelligence services know the real culprits within the first week or so and you quickly never hear about the other claimants again.

[Viking]

I'm talking about individual European countries, not Europe as a whole. If all of Europe's Muslim immigration was evenly distributed based on percentage of European total population cross all of geographical Europe (including European Russia) then this issue would not be nearly as notable.

Numbers of Muslims
France - 3.5 M
Germany - 4.0 M
Netherlands - 0.9 M
Britain - 1.6 M
USA - 2.4
Canada - 0.7 M

So, way many more immigrant muslims in many european countries than in the US.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Gee, nice ad hom. Go fuck yourself, cunt.

Not even close to insulting.

[CountDeMoney]

Yes, Japanese Americans suffered during WWII

Just some. Not all.
The ones on the east coast continued to live lifes of spiritual fulfillment.

[Viking]

So what was with some Islamicists apparently claiming responsibility for this when they caught the guy and he was actually a far right anti-muslim sort?

Islamists think that killing non-muslim innocents is a good thing.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I'm talking about individual European countries, not Europe as a whole. If all of Europe's Muslim immigration was evenly distributed based on percentage of European total population cross all of geographical Europe (including European Russia) then this issue would not be nearly as notable.

Numbers of Muslims
France - 3.5 M
Germany - 4.0 M
Netherlands - 0.9 M
Britain - 1.6 M
USA - 2.4
Canada - 0.7 M

So, way many more immigrant muslims in many european countries than in the US.

I'm not sure how this directly relates to what I was saying. My point was that individual European countries have had issues with Muslim immigration because they have smaller populations and have low birth rates. So there is that concern of being "outnumbered" when you have increasing Muslim immigration combined with high birth rates of Muslim immigrants.

Your numbers basically are showing my point, is that your intention?

Obviously also some countries have large numbers of Muslims (Russia for example) but not necessarily all of that is due to immigration, Russia has had a large number of Muslims ever since various conquests in the 19th century.

[Martinus]

I think we do need some definitions here, since everybody seems to have his own definition of multi-culturalism. The thing is that it is a word with alot of associations to it outside of it's definition. I'm going to make a stab at it..


Multi culturalism is a set of ideas and attitudes which include
- the idea that no culture is superior to another culture
- the idea that inherited culture is vital so self image and self worth and must be cultivated
- the idea that assimilation is an act of hegemonic cultural repression
- the idea that one's own successful; since non failed culture has developed multi culturalism in it's own sphere; seeks to impose hegemony on other cultures

This is very much a case of the ideas of the '68ers with their post-modernism and cultural relativism and rejection of truth and Truth as mere constructs surviving into today. Obviously I am against it.

The US melting pot works precisely because you can bring your own food, your own god and your own music, but you will damn sure adopt the american dream and the values of the enlightenment. Multi-culturalism and cultural relativism means that societies like Norway cannot insist that immigrants adopt the norwegian dream and cannot insist that immigrants adopt the values of the enlightenment because we cannot, as a society, assert that our values are better than theirs.

Why is the EU accused of multiculturalism then? It seems like it may be the only institution/organisation in Europe that is actively striving for an American-style identity for Euros.

[Viking]

I'm talking about individual European countries, not Europe as a whole. If all of Europe's Muslim immigration was evenly distributed based on percentage of European total population cross all of geographical Europe (including European Russia) then this issue would not be nearly as notable.

Numbers of Muslims
France - 3.5 M
Germany - 4.0 M
Netherlands - 0.9 M
Britain - 1.6 M
USA - 2.4
Canada - 0.7 M

So, way many more immigrant muslims in many european countries than in the US.

I'm not sure how this directly relates to what I was saying. My point was that individual European countries have had issues with Muslim immigration because they have smaller populations and have low birth rates. So there is that concern of being "outnumbered" when you have increasing Muslim immigration combined with high birth rates of Muslim immigrants.

Your numbers basically are showing my point, is that your intention?

Obviously also some countries have large numbers of Muslims (Russia for example) but not necessarily all of that is due to immigration, Russia has had a large number of Muslims ever since various conquests in the 19th century.

Is it possible that my intention was to show the data supporting your assertion? Russian, Bosniak and Albanian muslims are established populations and thus not really relevant to the assimilation issue.

[Razgovory]

I think it is rather silly how opponents of multiculturalism fail to understand that it is not an ideology in itself, but rather an attempt to keep the lid on globalisation to prevent it from boiling over into some sort of global upheaval.

The West is not a victim of multiculturalism or even a besieged fortress. We are beneficiaries of globalisation, and it has progressed from the 19th century's raw material globalisation to the 20th century's goods and services globalisation to the 21st centuries's employment market globalisation. The world has changed - largely, differences similar to the old class divides are no longer vertical but geographical - we, in the West are the upper class, the "third world" is the working/lower class.

Any form of isolationism or autarky is simply unworkable in the modern world - and more importantly, the anti-immigration crowd would not be willing to pay the price for it, economically. And if we continue treating the third world as helots, slaves and serfs, without rights, we will have a revolution on our hands. So the question is not if we should let immigrants in, but how.

Marty, how many times do we have to remind you, you are not a Westerner.  Mono has a better claim of being a Westerner then you do.

[CountDeMoney]

Numbers of Muslims
France - 3.5 M
Germany - 4.0 M
Netherlands - 0.9 M
Britain - 1.6 M
USA - 2.4
Canada - 0.7 M

Number of Jews, 2010
Austria   9,000
Belgium    30,300
Bulgaria    2,000
Czech Republic  3,900
Denmark    6,400
Estonia 1,800
Finland 1,100
France 483,500
Germany    119,000
Greece 4,500
Hungary 48,600
Ireland 1,200
Italy 28,400
Latvia 9,700
Lithuania    2,800
Luxembourg 600
Netherlands 30,000
Poland 3,200
Portugal 500
Romania 9,700
Slovakia 2,600
Slovenia 100
Spain 12,000
Sweden 15,000
United Kingdom 292,000



Yeah, I went there.

[Viking]

Why is the EU accused of multiculturalism then? It seems like it may be the only institution/organisation in Europe that is actively striving for an American-style identity for Euros.

I think all political authorities which are not actively opposing multiculturalism are the enemy in his view.

Furthermore, I don't consider the EU to be working successfully for a dominant culture in europe, or at least, when it does it fails or makes a fool of itself by advocating something the pope would agree with.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Why is Poland's Jewish population so low? I thought they had a really large Jewish minority historically.

[CountDeMoney]

Why is Poland's Jewish population so low?

I wonder...

[Martinus]

Why is the EU accused of multiculturalism then? It seems like it may be the only institution/organisation in Europe that is actively striving for an American-style identity for Euros.

I think all political authorities which are not actively opposing multiculturalism are the enemy in his view.

Furthermore, I don't consider the EU to be working successfully for a dominant culture in europe, or at least, when it does it fails or makes a fool of itself by advocating something the pope would agree with.

Well, I don't think what we have as the "European identity" (as exemplified by the EU) now is significantly less than what Americans have if you think about it - it is an over-reaching if abstract "identity" which is not ethnicity-based, it is a flag, an anthem, a bunch of symbols and a set of principles (like the ones set out in the EU treaty and the chart of human rights). It's like with the joke about getting a great lawn - you just need to plant the grass, and then water it and trim, water and trim, for 200 years.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Why is Poland's Jewish population so low?

I wonder...

Keep in mind though that Europeans never called no one [sic] a nigger and never had colored water fountains.