Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[The Brain]

Zanza, in the Canadian system all workplace disputes are worked out between the Union and the Employer.  The worker in question is a mere witness to what occurred.  The Union has a duty to fairly represent the worker but fair representation does not go as far as doing what the worker wants.  The union is free to tell the worker that it will not arbitrate the workers grievance if the union believes that is the best course for the collective of all the workers.

@ Canadian union members: :nelson

[crazy canuck]

@ Canadian union members: :nelson

I should put that in my signature line after advising unionized employees that they cant do anything outside their union.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah that's why Maggie had to break them.

Maggie never broke the unions.  She broke their power, certainly, but the same unions who opposed her are still around.  There wasn't ever any union breaking like under, say, Bobby Kennedy.  I can't think of any union or any union leader (democratically elected by the membership) who has been implicated in any organised crime.  That could be a lack of reading, or memory on my part but I think it's sort of held up by a couple of great anti-union films.

In the US you have 'On The Waterfront' a brilliant polemical film against unions and their clear involvement with organised crime. 

In the UK we have 'I'm Alright Jack' a brilliant satire that shows the unions incompetent (led by Peter Sellers in one of his best roles as the communist sympathising shop-steward: 'Ahhh, Russia. All them corn fields and ballet in the evening.', 'We do not and cannot accept the principle that incompetence justifies dismissal. That is victimisation.') meanwhile the company management are corrupt and trying to sell everything to an Arab arms dealer until it's all exposed (including everyone's bad behaviour) by a naive incompetent fool.

Those are two very different backgrounds from which Americans and people like me or Jos look at unions.

Edit: Just saw this brilliant line from 'I'm Alright Jack' that still describes the British worker: 'The natural rhythm of the British worker is neither natural, rhythmic, or much to do with work.'

I remember the terror I faced in my work when the Poles started arriving and were all hard-working.

[The Brain]

Yeah that's why Maggie had to break them.

Maggie never broke the unions.  She broke their power, certainly

Thank you.

[crazy canuck]

Wasnt there also a Carry On movie with a backdrop of a union.  I remember a scene where a supervisor wanted to inspect a work area to see if any work was being done (none was) and the shop stewart quickly showed him the door pointing out that supervision was strictly forbidden.

[viper37]

Unions are linked to organised crime?

I am going to assume that is a sarcasm.

That is not sarcasm, that is truth, and they are under investigation by the SQ.  Didn't the news cross the provincial border?
http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/04/08/just-where-are-those-billions-for-infrastructure-going-exactly/


Of course, there will be no formal accusations, even less any kind of sanctions.  It happenned before, it will happen again.
1974 - Commission Cliche revealed ties with many construction unions and the mob.  Among other things, unions were guilty of intimidating workers and entrepreneurs to get their way.

2003- Commission d'Enquête sur la Gaspésia revealed the FTQ was guilty of intimidating workers and entrepreneurs.

2009- La Presse and Radio-Canada (CBC) revealed the head of the FTQ Construction had acummulated 125 000$ in expenses for six months, wich for the most part was unjustified (say for example, a 600$ diner...) and made up of false bills/receipts.  Ties to the Hell's Angels and Italian mafia were revealed in later investigations, for various members of the FTQ.  The head of Montreal public services spent a week on a luxurious yacht in the Caribeans, while the city was giving its biggest contract yet to the owner of said yacht.  Mr Accurso, owner of the Yacht has close ties with the FTQ and all the senior directors of this company seems to have spent time on his yacht at one point or another.  The FTQ never bothered any of Mr Accurso companies...  While us, mere mortals not rich enough to pay caribean cruise, or even St-Lawrence cruise to workers, we have to make do with the assholes they force us to employ whenever we go outside our home region.

As as said, it happenned before, it will happen again.

[Habbaku]

Or is just unions that shouldn't have influence on politicians, while businesses are OK?

Yes, I believe that businesses should run the country, that our Renraku overlords should sell half the country to Japan for greater profits and that the CEOs of the 10 largest countries (sorry, companies) should get prima noctae rights over the serfs working in their factories.

[crazy canuck]

Viper, I was saying that he must be sarcastically wondering whether organized crime is involved in Unions.

For our British friends who wish to think they are immune.  They might want to take a closer look at their stevedoring companies.  Hard to believe organized crime has infiltrated everywhere else but somehow GB has no such involvement.

[DontSayBanana]

Wow; just finally got back to this thread (went to bed right after posting it), and yeah, dumb old I should have mentioned that it was the US labor union model in particular that I'm talking about.

The concept has some merit, but it really decries a lack of faith in our own employment laws: the law dictates hiring, firing, and acceptable discipline- the union appeal becomes redundant when you consider OSHA's role in determining quality of working conditions, the NLRB's control of fair business practices, and the EEOC's role in delimiting acceptable causes for application rejection, discipline, and dismissal. The only aspect that isn't boldly outlined by the government is individual pay practice, but it does outline recourse against disparate pay, so for the most part, you can expect to be held to the same pay practices as your superiors.

Labor unions do have a limited right to sue, so all they really do in practice is remove the benefit of our objective labor laws and replace them to an extent with an archaic hierarchical model.

[Sheilbh]

Wasnt there also a Carry On movie with a backdrop of a union.  I remember a scene where a supervisor wanted to inspect a work area to see if any work was being done (none was) and the shop stewart quickly showed him the door pointing out that supervision was strictly forbidden.

Possibly.  I can't think of a Carry On union films

For our British friends who wish to think they are immune.  They might want to take a closer look at their stevedoring companies.  Hard to believe organized crime has infiltrated everywhere else but somehow GB has no such involvement.

I don't know what a stevedoring company is, from what I understand a stevedore is a docker (this is based on The Wire).  While the Dockers' Union is one of the most militant trades unions in the country I can't think of any link to organised crime, at least, certainly not in Liverpool.

Even searching for unions, uk and organised crime in google the best I get is stuff on EU wide organised crime and unions protesting that employers are too close to people smugglers in their lack of interest in migrant workers' documentation.

[Grey Fox]

I am not a member of any union. I think I should join a professional order tho.

[fhdz]

Unions in the US are largely ridiculous.  Unions in Europe seem to be moderately useful.  Unions in developing and less stable economies are a must.

I cannot, therefore, vote in this poll.  Too many variables, not enough poll options.

[The Brain]

Unions in Europe seem to be moderately useful.

You are deceived.

[fhdz]

You are deceived.

Possibly.  But they don't seem as shitty as US unions, at least.

[grumbler]

Ever heard of monopolies?

Yes, and in the US unions are attempts to monopolize the supply of labor.  That which is universally condemned in businesses seems perfectly acceptable to some when undertaken by a union.

This isn't to say that unions don't have their uses, but pretty much the only unions left in the US are closed-shop unions, and those are the most pernicious kind of unions.