Athens Mulls Plans for New Currency; Greece Considers Exit from Euro Zone

[MadImmortalMan]

How can a European government in the shitty part of Europe possibly get by on spending what it earns?  Living in Athens would be like living in Dachau.

Ideally, they'll start, you know, earning something.

[Slargos]

How can a European government in the shitty part of Europe possibly get by on spending what it earns?  Living in Athens would be like living in Dachau.

Ideally, they'll start, you know, earning something.

These are modern, Turkic Greeks, they're not the kind of Greeks that can create, build or earn anything. You fucking byzantophiles are 700 years behind on this.

[jimmy olsen]

How can a European government in the shitty part of Europe possibly get by on spending what it earns?  Living in Athens would be like living in Dachau.

Ideally, they'll start, you know, earning something.

These are modern, Turkic Greeks, they're not the kind of Greeks that can create, build or earn anything. You fucking byzantophiles are 700 years behind on this.

Calling the Greeks Turks is insulting to the Turks isn't it? Turkey has a growing and more well balanced economy doesn't it?

[Slargos]

How can a European government in the shitty part of Europe possibly get by on spending what it earns?  Living in Athens would be like living in Dachau.

Ideally, they'll start, you know, earning something.

These are modern, Turkic Greeks, they're not the kind of Greeks that can create, build or earn anything. You fucking byzantophiles are 700 years behind on this.

Calling the Greeks Turks is insulting to the Turks isn't it? Turkey has a growing and more well balanced economy doesn't it?

I don't mind insulting the Turks.

But yes, it is a good indictment on the Greeks, the fact that the Turks are much more successful than them.

I think this is divine karmic retribution for the fact that those goatfucking layabouts are filing defamation lawsuits against women who've been raped there while on vacation.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The drachma used to devalue by about 10% or so a year, it was a weak currency so Greece was a cheap tourist destination. The Greeks, while not poor, seemed to have about a third less money than the likes of Germans or Brits. On my most recent visit (2007 IIRC), prices had converged with general Western European levels but not with the standards, hotel prices were particularly bad. The Greeks themselves were apparently well-off and had no problems with the prices........I wondered where they had found this wealth 

[Martinus]

Of course, when it comes to countries like Greece and Portugal, perhaps they simply shouldn't be in the union to begin with, given their fantastic financial acumen. It's far easier to convince people to support their neighbour in a time of need if the neighbour isn't a belligerent drunk who considers begging and whining to be honest work.

The problem with that is that it's not really a question of Portugal and Greece being inept and France and Germany responsible. It's more like France and Germany are less inept. There's no rule written in stone that a country that has graduated from being a serial defaulter cannot return to the world where default is a possibility. It's a game of trust. The only way anyone can issue debt is if people are willing to buy it. Eventually, the perception of the bond market will be that Euro sovereigns are all a bunch of drunks in general. That's why the lazy drunks of today are important.

Well. My point was that the Greeks in particular are spending other people's money like it's going out of fashion, and with that kind of game it's no wonder that people don't want to play.

A Greek has to work 35 years to earn a full pension. A German has to work 45. Why should the German worker be happy about spending 5 years of his life working for the Greek?

The problem with this view is that it is very simplistic. It's not about what is fair. It's about what works. For Germany, being able to sell their superior products (while being protected with pan-European tariffs from the competition from the US or China) to the rest of Europe generates much more wealth than it pays into the common pot to let a Greek worker retire earlier. And because of letting the Greek worker retire earlier, a German worker is not facing as much competition from the Greek one (who is still able to afford German products).

It's like in a national economy with a welfare system. Technically the well-off pay a part of their wealth to let the poor live off the welfare. Many decry it unfair, as often the well-off work much harder than the poor, so why should they also be the ones paying? But in the end, this creates a system where the hard working can get to status and wealth, without having to worry about social costs of having poor starving masses revolt.

[Martinus]

How can a European government in the shitty part of Europe possibly get by on spending what it earns?  Living in Athens would be like living in Dachau.

Ideally, they'll start, you know, earning something.

These are modern, Turkic Greeks, they're not the kind of Greeks that can create, build or earn anything. You fucking byzantophiles are 700 years behind on this.

Calling the Greeks Turks is insulting to the Turks isn't it? Turkey has a growing and more well balanced economy doesn't it?

Err, I wouldn't say that a country where outside of two big cities and a handful of tourist destinations, people live in abject, dirt-hovel poverty has a "balanced economy".

[Slargos]

How can a European government in the shitty part of Europe possibly get by on spending what it earns?  Living in Athens would be like living in Dachau.

Ideally, they'll start, you know, earning something.

These are modern, Turkic Greeks, they're not the kind of Greeks that can create, build or earn anything. You fucking byzantophiles are 700 years behind on this.

Calling the Greeks Turks is insulting to the Turks isn't it? Turkey has a growing and more well balanced economy doesn't it?

Err, I wouldn't say that a country where outside of two big cities and a handful of tourist destinations, people live in abject, dirt-hovel poverty has a "balanced economy".

It's well balanced for the Haves.

[citizen k]

Calling the Greeks Turks is insulting to the Turks isn't it? Turkey has a growing and more well balanced economy doesn't it?

Err, I wouldn't say that a country where outside of two big cities and a handful of tourist destinations, people live in abject, dirt-hovel poverty has a "balanced economy".

The Turkish economy overheating
http://www.economist.com/node/18651739

One factor which makes Turkey stand out from many of its regional peers is that it is not overly export-dependent and has a dynamic domestic economy which complements the export sector. This means that the Turkish economy basically stands upright, and on both feet, and that, despite the recent loss of export competitiveness the impetus behind GDP growth is much more broadly-based than in the other, heavily-indebted countries which can be found in the surrounding region. In addition, the underlying strength of domestic demand means the Turkish government has a far broader, and ever-growing, potential tax base. This makes it much easier to attain longer term fiscal stability, and means that the country does not have to continually stagger forward on the basis of a series of "one off" measures to keep the deficit under control.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/245549-turkish-economy-has-surpassed-pre-crisis-levels-in-recovery-mode

[Zanza2]

Calling the Greeks Turks is insulting to the Turks isn't it? Turkey has a growing and more well balanced economy doesn't it?

Greece is twice as rich as Turkey.

[chipwich]

Not for long

[Zanza2]

The problem with this view is that it is very simplistic. It's not about what is fair. It's about what works. For Germany, being able to sell their superior products (while being protected with pan-European tariffs from the competition from the US or China) to the rest of Europe generates much more wealth than it pays into the common pot to let a Greek worker retire earlier. And because of letting the Greek worker retire earlier, a German worker is not facing as much competition from the Greek one (who is still able to afford German products).

The problem with all that wealth generation is that thanks to the free capital market of the EU, all that money directly flows back into Spanish and Irish real estate or Greek sovereign bonds. Which are now worthless.
If selling something means that the German worker has to pay for it later by recapitalizing the German banks or some EU facility or by directly bailing out the Greek government, he certainly hasn't made a profit on this. Someone else (German bankers, Greek yacht-owners, the international cabal of evil) might have, but you can't really blame the normal wage earner for feeling shafted in this whole situation.

It's like in a national economy with a welfare system. Technically the well-off pay a part of their wealth to let the poor live off the welfare. Many decry it unfair, as often the well-off work much harder than the poor, so why should they also be the ones paying? But in the end, this creates a system where the hard working can get to status and wealth, without having to worry about social costs of having poor starving masses revolt.

I don't know if you have read any economic news about Germany in the last decade or so. In the early 2000s, we were the sick man of Europe. But then came harsh reforms to the social and labour market combined with a decade of below inflation income increases. The problem really is that Germany is no longer rich compared to its European neighbours and doesn't have a lavish social state anymore either. It was cut back a lot to make Germany competitive again. That's why Germans don't want to pay for other country's welfare systems.

It doesn't matter if it may not be wise in economic terms, but in political terms it is impossible for Germany to accept anything less than massive reforms of the respective economies. That's too bad because it has a moralistic component to it that has no rational basis, but that's the political reality. The alternative is really that Germany gets a party like the True Finns or perhaps more likely that the conservatives and liberals rebel against Merkel.

[Martinus]

I disagree. This money is not flowing in a sterile environment - when it flows back to Germany, it increases the living standards of people there, even if some of it flows back to Greece as you say.

I think what you are saying is really an expression of populist crap fed to the German public by the politicians there than anything real. Saying this is a "political reality" is perhaps true, but that just shows how divorced from reality your politicians are in their attempt to get votes.

[Slargos]

I disagree. This money is not flowing in a sterile environment - when it flows back to Germany, it increases the living standards of people there, even if some of it flows back to Greece as you say.

I think what you are saying is really an expression of populist crap fed to the German public by the politicians there than anything real. Saying this is a "political reality" is perhaps true, but that just shows how divorced from reality your politicians are in their attempt to get votes.

Standard of living is only artificially increased by money itself, since it will always come at the cost of SoL for foreigners. Sheiks in Dubai building airplanes of gold comes from labour in their own countries and the imported labour in exchange for the export of oil.

All real increase in standard of living comes from the increase in efficiency of product, and the decrease of total amount of dependents vs total amount of gainfully employed.

Hence, no matter how you slice it, the german workers are paying for the greek pensioners, and in effect they are giving several years of their lives in order to prop up the greek system. Now, it might well be true that this is a form of protection money paid out to the plebes in order to keep them from rioting, but it doesn't change that the people making the payments are the same plebes that are receiving them, it's just that the german plebes are actually working hard to support the less productive greek plebes. Like Zanza noted, the gains from the export of goods to Greece mainly line the pockets of the Capitalists, while the costs are shouldered by the Plebes.

With all this in mind, frankly, I sometimes wonder how I can not be a rabid communist.

[Zanza2]

I disagree. This money is not flowing in a sterile environment - when it flows back to Germany, it increases the living standards of people there, even if some of it flows back to Greece as you say.

I think what you are saying is really an expression of populist crap fed to the German public by the politicians there than anything real. Saying this is a "political reality" is perhaps true, but that just shows how divorced from reality your politicians are in their attempt to get votes.[/

But you do know that Germany has a gigantic current account surplus (more than China in relative terms), which in turn means it is exporting capital because that surplus is not invested at home? And that it had by far the lowest investment rate in the EU in the last decade? And that German incomes basically stagnated in real terms during the 2000s or went down for the lowest deciles? The lopsided trade balance sounds great, but it isn't as the money isn't invested in Germany, but elsewhere. This is slowly changing as the realization is that Germany is a lower risk compared to other potentially more lucrative destinations.
These numbers are not from politicians by the way, they are from economic institutes. Politicians don't like to tell stuff like that. They prefer to bask in the glory of being "export world champion" or so.

Do you have any numbers that support your claims? If not, you just show how divorced from reality you are.