Athens Mulls Plans for New Currency; Greece Considers Exit from Euro Zone

[alfred russel]

The problem with this view is that it is very simplistic. It's not about what is fair. It's about what works. For Germany, being able to sell their superior products (while being protected with pan-European tariffs from the competition from the US or China) to the rest of Europe generates much more wealth than it pays into the common pot to let a Greek worker retire earlier. And because of letting the Greek worker retire earlier, a German worker is not facing as much competition from the Greek one (who is still able to afford German products).

It's like in a national economy with a welfare system. Technically the well-off pay a part of their wealth to let the poor live off the welfare. Many decry it unfair, as often the well-off work much harder than the poor, so why should they also be the ones paying? But in the end, this creates a system where the hard working can get to status and wealth, without having to worry about social costs of having poor starving masses revolt.

I do think the european union is a tremendous benefit to Germany. Investing in infrastructure in less developed nearby countries where relatively small investments can do a lot of good (such as Poland) will probably be of long term benefit to Germany. But it is very hard for me to accept that the reduced competition from Greek workers at all justifies paying the benefits of early retirees there. Most Greek workers don't directly compete with Germans, so why pay the upkeep for multiple Greeks to keep a percentage from competing with Germans? Surely there are more effective ways to benefit Germans.

Subsidizing long term deficit spending in Greece is not analogous to welfare spending. I'm happy to pay welfare (generally) because people on welfare tend to unable to support themselves (due to illness, injury, economic conditions, or just poor education/life skills). None of those apply to the Greek nation. From a more selfish perspective, I don't want a bunch of poor people desperate for food spreading disease in my community or driven to crime. For the most part, Germany doesn't have to worry about those problems from Greece either.

[Neil]

How can a European government in the shitty part of Europe possibly get by on spending what it earns?  Living in Athens would be like living in Dachau.

Ideally, they'll start, you know, earning something.

These are modern, Turkic Greeks, they're not the kind of Greeks that can create, build or earn anything. You fucking byzantophiles are 700 years behind on this.

Calling the Greeks Turks is insulting to the Turks isn't it? Turkey has a growing and more well balanced economy doesn't it?

Err, I wouldn't say that a country where outside of two big cities and a handful of tourist destinations, people live in abject, dirt-hovel poverty has a "balanced economy".

But enough about Poland.

Hyuk hyuk.

[Neil]

The Germans and Greeks don't compete.  The Germans do manufacturing, finance and services, while the Greeks do theft, fraud and tourism.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The solution is for the Greeks to devalue and for millions of Germans to visit Greece, eat and drink vast quantities and stop the Brits from bagging the sunloungers. Unfortunately this is not consistent with euro membership.

[jimmy olsen]

How can a European government in the shitty part of Europe possibly get by on spending what it earns?  Living in Athens would be like living in Dachau.

Ideally, they'll start, you know, earning something.

These are modern, Turkic Greeks, they're not the kind of Greeks that can create, build or earn anything. You fucking byzantophiles are 700 years behind on this.

Calling the Greeks Turks is insulting to the Turks isn't it? Turkey has a growing and more well balanced economy doesn't it?

Err, I wouldn't say that a country where outside of two big cities and a handful of tourist destinations, people live in abject, dirt-hovel poverty has a "balanced economy".

But enough about Poland.

Hyuk hyuk.

Poland has TWO cities!

[Slargos]

The Germans and Greeks don't compete.  The Germans do manufacturing, finance and services, while the Greeks do theft, fraud and tourism.

I don't care if it's just a schtick. You are a wonderful person. 

[HisMajestyBOB]

Calling the Greeks Turks is insulting to the Turks isn't it? Turkey has a growing and more well balanced economy doesn't it?

Greece is twice as rich as Turkey.

Per capita, yes. Total GDP of Turkey is larger.

[Iormlund]

I don't know if you have read any economic news about Germany in the last decade or so. In the early 2000s, we were the sick man of Europe. But then came harsh reforms to the social and labour market combined with a decade of below inflation income increases. The problem really is that Germany is no longer rich compared to its European neighbours and doesn't have a lavish social state anymore either. It was cut back a lot to make Germany competitive again. That's why Germans don't want to pay for other country's welfare systems.

Yet even after those "harsh" reforms, your welfare system is a lot more generous than those in question.

Welfare is not really the root of the Greek problem. Lack of income is. And that comes down to a bloated public sector, artificially privileged groups and massive tax evasion. Nobody there is honest about what they earn. Not even the government.