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Who the hell is an immigrant?

Started by Slargos, April 27, 2011, 07:36:46 AM

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Razgovory

#180
May 01, 2011, 08:48:45 AM
A hundred thousand years?  I'm not sure behavioral modernity is that old.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Pat

#181
May 01, 2011, 09:51:14 AM
Why would that be relevant?

Razgovory

#182
May 01, 2011, 09:58:16 AM
Quote from: Pat on May 01, 2011, 09:51:14 AM
Why would that be relevant?

If we are to include a time before Human beings were fulling sentient, why not go back before they even walked up right.  Why not say a Malthusian trap extending back to the Mesozoic?  The concept of economy doesn't date back that far.  I don't think Malthus was considering agricultural output before agriculture.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Pat

#183
May 01, 2011, 10:14:11 AM Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:17:14 AM by Pat
Yes, why not? Why not go back that far? Based on logic he could've gone back to before the human species existed, before mammals existed or even back to the start of life on the planet. Generally speaking all plant, animal and bacterial life is malthusian. This isn't so hard. Let's say you have a niche in the eco-system of a certain size and you have more individuals than can fit into the niche. Then there must be competition within the niche because there's not room for everyone. This is Malthus. Darwin realized that only the fittest would survive under these conditions and that variations that are successful would propagate. Darwin builds on Malthus. Humans today, at least in the West, are different from basically all other (non-domesticated, edit) living things in that we do not currently labour under these conditions but there isn't really any question in my mind whether we used to do so as everyone else (but I'm curious as to what Joan/Minsky has to say on the matter).

Pat

#184
May 01, 2011, 10:49:27 AM Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 10:59:01 AM by Pat
Quote from: Pat on May 01, 2011, 10:14:11 AM
Then there must be competition within the niche because there's not room for everyone. This is Malthus.

BTW this was a bit simplistic but suffice to say it is competition from an evolutionary perspective which must not be competition in the sense of individuals pitted against each other in direct confrontative competition. Especially in cold climates it is often so that the winner in darwinian competition is the one that co-operates with others.  Darwin went to the tropics where there's ample resources year round there for the taking and this has influenced later darwinian understanding in a very unfortunate way. Prince Krapotkin, who after leaving the corps of pages at the russian court surprised everyone by choosing (because he wanted to make contributions to science) to be stationed in the far east even though he could've chosen any regiment he wanted, had read Darwin and expected to see this fierce competition over resources but saw very little of it, rather the opposite, which is to say co-operation, even between different species. His excellent and brilliantly written book about mutual aid as a factor of evolution is a great riposte to more crude and simplistic understandings of evolutionary theory.


edit: his memoirs are fascinating and a great read. I have an edition printed in 1904 where it says "Prince Krapotkin" which looks nice in the book-shelf (my newer Krapotkin books say Peter Krapotkin or something similar).

Neil

#185
May 01, 2011, 12:35:40 PM
Quote from: Pat on April 29, 2011, 07:49:08 AM
BTW Joan I wonder if you're familar with the works of economic historian Gregory Clark? He seems to be the currently most fervent champion of Malthusianism (in a sense of the word more in line with grumblers) and while I remain unconvinced of his more extraordinary conclusions (especially his proposed cause for the industrial revolution) I find some of his arguments to be very firm and some of them go directly counter to what you're saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYspzYiX_kg


I have a hard time thinking that he would be worthwhile if he doesn't know that there was no year 0.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Pat

#186
May 01, 2011, 12:50:10 PM Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:52:04 PM by Pat
 ;) Good point.

Not saying he's a particularly worthwhile read btw though he might spark a very worthwhile dialectical process (that one can then read about summed up in secondary literature).

Razgovory

#187
May 01, 2011, 01:42:33 PM
QuoteDarwin realized that only the fittest would survive under these conditions and that variations that are successful would propagate.

You do know that Darwinian Evolution has nothing to do with "Fitness", right?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Eddie Teach

#188
May 01, 2011, 01:52:07 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 01, 2011, 01:42:33 PM
QuoteDarwin realized that only the fittest would survive under these conditions and that variations that are successful would propagate.

You do know that Darwinian Evolution has nothing to do with "Fitness", right?

Sure it does. Gazelles that don't do enough cardio get eaten. Lions that don't starve.  :ph34r:
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Pat

#189
May 01, 2011, 01:54:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 01, 2011, 01:42:33 PM
QuoteDarwin realized that only the fittest would survive under these conditions and that variations that are successful would propagate.

You do know that Darwinian Evolution has nothing to do with "Fitness", right?

Sigh...

FITNESS FROM A DARWINIAN PERSPECTIVE.

I don't know why I bother being so nice. You know, I've never insulted you personally even though it would be so fucking easy.

Razgovory

#190
May 01, 2011, 02:10:05 PM
Sigh...


WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?


I don't know why I bother insulting you.  It seems cruel to do so to a person like you.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Pat

#191
May 01, 2011, 02:15:48 PM
I don't want to pick on someone with mental illness but your utter fucking stupidity is probably unrelated though I'm not sure. Either way you're a fucking retard.

Pat

#192
May 01, 2011, 02:23:43 PM
You don't understand what fitness is from a Darwinian perspective? Really? If there actually is someone else who does not understand this (though I doubt it) please come forward and I'll explain it nicely. I've really tried being nice and explaining things to this one but I only receive the lowest form of ressentiment back, there is no use, I give up.

Razgovory

#193
May 01, 2011, 02:27:56 PM
Maybe this all makes sense in Swedish, but when you use words like "Malthusian" and "fitness" and indicate definitions that differ from what is commonly used it's pretty confusing.  When you use an economic theory concerning agricultural output levels and population increases and extended to apply back before agriculture (or even plants), I find that really bizarre.  Now, I'm not the Economics guy on the board.  That's JR.  Nor am I the Biology guy on the board.  Viking and Berkut know much more about that.  I'm not even that well educated, but even I can see the flaws in all this nonsense.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Pat

#194
May 01, 2011, 02:30:07 PM
Is it really so hard to understand that words can have different meanings depending on context? Not that it's just you with that problem. Is it some American thing?
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