[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

Oex,

What is "English-language politics"?

I think Drakken has done an good job describing the nature of Quebec politics.  But I am unclear as to this other concept other than as defined in the Quebec narrative described by Drakken.  Is that all you mean by the phrase or is it something more?

[Malthus]

The other biggie embedded in the Constitution itself are the Native Canadians. They also tend to clash in interests with the non-Native Canadian Québécois the most.

Of course, in the big cities such as Toronto or Vancouver, the notion of a unified Anglo Canada is an anachronism now.

When talking about Quebec and ROC it is just semantics. Quebec's big chip on its collective shoulder is not with the Sikhs or the Native Canadians, it's with the nine-provinces ROC collectively. In other words and to resume, You and the kind of dismissive attitude you have just showcased.

The first thing you need to learn if you wish to get Quebecers, especially French-Quebecers, is that they do not like to be patronized on their history and their national ideology, especially not by an WASP. While it might be true on the paper, it is a big faux pas to reduce their identity to one among many when they have founded the damn Canada. It is also a social faux pas to pedantly show where your interlocutor is wrong, and why. At least according to Carnagie.

Why? It reeks of the usual paternalism and dismissiveness that, if attempted in Quebec, usually ends up with said Anglophone either given the cold shoulder by his interlocutor if he is polite, or a very loud décâlisse d'icitte ostie d'Anglo if he not. And, if drunk, comes with the risk of a push and a scuffle. And, I might have, even if the interlocutor himself is a federalist.

I've been re-created as a WASP! 

Only in this sort of discussion would that happen.

Are you claiming that to point out that Native Canadians have a significantly different identity from either French or English Canadians, or that English Canadians are not a unified identity (much less all "WASPs" ) is worthy of a "scuffle"?  Or that it is a "dismissive" or "patronizing" attitude to point out what is plain fact?

[Oexmelin]

Oex,

What is "English-language politics"?

I think Drakken has done an good job describing the nature of Quebec politics.  But I am unclear as to this other concept other than as defined in the Quebec narrative described by Drakken.  Is that all you mean by the phrase or is it something more?

I simply meant politics conducted, debated, argued in English - the kind of forum that houses such politics. When everyone shares in the same language, the language itself becomes, not irrelevant, but focused on other aspects, such as tone, vocabulary, class markers, etc. I am not saying there is a thing as homogeneous politics or political ideas based on a language (that would be silly) - I am simply saying that language itself inflects politics in meaningful ways that cannot, and indeed should not be reduced to tribalism. Ultimately, for politicians to rise from local politicians to national politicians, they have to communicate across their community boundaries, and they have to be able to get information about other communities. Local politicians who can master English have a much better chance at reaching across their communities everywhere except Quebec. 

Just to give another example, not related to Quebec's view of the ROC: I found remarkable, for instance, how much Harper's political culture was influenced by American political culture (a PM's spokesperson?) - and it makes a lot of sense for a political junkie to consume American politics at the source. But it had a directness that had no corresponding equivalent in Quebec. Similarly, in Quebec, a lot of our debates are influenced by French politics - the whole debate about laïcité consumes a lot of French debates at the source, in ways that are really hard to convey in translation.

All those nuances that become much harder to wield once you engage in politics in your second-language.

[Malthus]

More to the point - Quebec tends to form a "reactive ethnicity" as against the English-speaking culture, which people from Quebec are aware of because of the ubiquity of English media. The reverse is not the case. People in the RoC do not define themselves as against Quebec, but are divided by quite different concerns, such as personal ethnic identity and heritage, or regional identity: for example, someone from Alberta is likely to look at "central Canada" as being a more meaningful "opposite" than Quebec, for all that people in Quebec speak French, and people in Ontario speak English: what matters to Albertans is the memory of "central Canadian" persecution/domination via the NEP.  Of course, Native Canadians, whether in Quebec or elsewhere, see that category as more meaningful that what language they speak.

[Oexmelin]

Yes, yes, the country is obviously divided in more ways than one - but the fact that Quebec is already removed from the equation - it is its own weird "thing", in that it does not participate in the political realm in the same way, and thus can either be ignored, or contained within the peculiarity of the province, means whatever emerges from Quebec's own political scene is labeled as weird, ethnicized, fundamentally other. Other provinces have interests. Quebec has "tribe".

[crazy canuck]

Oex,

What is "English-language politics"?

I think Drakken has done an good job describing the nature of Quebec politics.  But I am unclear as to this other concept other than as defined in the Quebec narrative described by Drakken.  Is that all you mean by the phrase or is it something more?

I simply meant politics conducted, debated, argued in English - the kind of forum that houses such politics. When everyone shares in the same language, the language itself becomes, not irrelevant, but focused on other aspects, such as tone, vocabulary, class markers, etc. I am not saying there is a thing as homogeneous politics or political ideas based on a language (that would be silly) - I am simply saying that language itself inflects politics in meaningful ways that cannot, and indeed should not be reduced to tribalism. Ultimately, for politicians to rise from local politicians to national politicians, they have to communicate across their community boundaries, and they have to be able to get information about other communities. Local politicians who can master English have a much better chance at reaching across their communities everywhere except Quebec. 

Just to give another example, not related to Quebec's view of the ROC: I found remarkable, for instance, how much Harper's political culture was influenced by American political culture (a PM's spokesperson?) - and it makes a lot of sense for a political junkie to consume American politics at the source. But it had a directness that had no corresponding equivalent in Quebec. Similarly, in Quebec, a lot of our debates are influenced by French politics - the whole debate about laïcité consumes a lot of French debates at the source, in ways that are really hard to convey in translation.



All those nuances that become much harder to wield once you engage in politics in your second-language.

Thank you for the explanation.  That makes perfect sense 

It also brings to mind the difficulty some of our English as a second language politicians here in BC have to rise to national or even Provincial political prominence.  There is a whole other political discourse carried out in Punjabi and Chinese during our federal and provincial elections that rarely reaches the English speaking consciousness. I think I understand much better what Drakken has been discussing with me today.

I appreciate the efforts you have both made. 

[viper37]

True. But is there anything specific I just have to see?

Depends on what you like.  If you want to feel just like home, visit Alberta

The prairies are endless fields or something or something else.  I have a weak spot for New Brunswick, Shediac area.  I'm not a huge fan of seafood, but there, I'll gladly eat a lobster or two   And I just love cruising along the small villages
Ottawa is very nice city.  Toronto is too crowded for me.  Montreal, it's like New York or Boston, but with half the population speaking French and looking weird at the other half, never speaking to them.

Halifax is a nice port-city, with an interesting museum.  Prince Edward Island... well, there are potato fields, Ann of Green Gables, Charlottetown where you can visit the place the Father of the Confederation signed their agreement, some potato fields, a bridge, some more potato fields and that's about it

Never been to Newfoundland, but my dad went and he liked to see it.  Don't think he'll ever go back though, once was enough

[viper37]

First nations are certainly apart the group, but others, they're pretty much the same as the average anglo in regards to their relations with the central government.  Besides, the majority of the other provinces are still predominantly english-speaking.

For all the time spent trying to explain how "Anglos" just dont understand you, you might want to consider how little you know about matters outside your border.  However, that might require adjusting your  us vs them view

us vs them is Quebec vs the Federal government.  That is the fight.  It's not a fight of English vs French, it's not a fight of English vs French vs Irish vs Mohawks vs Chinese vs Vietnamese vs Portuguese vs Mexicans.  It's a fight about who controls what, the Federal government, who will invariably side with english speaking provinces more often than not due to numbers, or the provincial governments.

Most Canadian provinces, even if they have lots of Chinese and South Asians citizens are perfectly satisified with the current power sharing scheme between their provinces and the Feds.  Quebec is not.  On that issue, there are 9 provinces who signed the 1982 Constitution, one who did not.

It does not matter if BC signed the Constitution because it's Chinese minority approved it.  It does not matter if Manitoba signed it because it's First Nations liked it.  It does not matter if Nova Scotia signed it because their WASP majority thought it was a good idea.  What matters is the predominently english speaking provinces were happy to sign it, are happy with it, and Quebec is not, never was, never will.

And the current government has made it clear it is hostile to French speakers of this country and cares a lot more about all other cultures but our own.

[garbon]

Wait.

I get it.  You were mimicking Viper's comment about everything being the same outside Quebec.  Well played sir.  But I think you risk others thinking you were serious. 

Dude. I have never been to Canada. I never said everything was the same outside of Quebec only that I was not aware of anything I just had to see.

I'm disappointed in you, Valmy.

[viper37]

that's it, I have to visit Manitoba now!

[Valmy]

I'm disappointed in you, Valmy.

Why?

[viper37]

But only if you promise people won't throw stuff at me.

so long as you're not a Boston fan in Montreal, you're as safe as anyone is in this country.  Of course, we are not armed to the teeth, so apparently, that makes us less safer than the average Texan

[Valmy]

But only if you promise people won't throw stuff at me.

so long as you're not a Boston fan in Montreal, you're as safe as anyone is in this country.  Of course, we are not armed to the teeth, so apparently, that makes us less safer than the average Texan

As of this point I am not aware of anybody having been shot at a sporting event in Texas

But hey there is always this season.

[garbon]

I'm disappointed in you, Valmy.

Why?

I never would have guessed you would label parts of Canada as basically further north iterations of America  cities.

[crazy canuck]

Most Canadian provinces, even if they have lots of Chinese and South Asians citizens are perfectly satisified with the current power sharing scheme between their provinces and the Feds.  Quebec is not.  On that issue, there are 9 provinces who signed the 1982 Constitution, one who did not.

Where are these Provinces that are perfectly satisfied with the current form of the Federation?  The maritimes maybe but even then for a brief period of time Newfoundland would have had the same complaints as any other "have" province.  To take a non economic issue, if the Supreme Court of Canada had not over ruled the British Columbia Court of Appeal on a number of First Nations cases the law regarding points unique to BC (where most of the land claimed which is not covered by treaty is located) would be very different.

The narrative that only Quebec has a dispute with the Federal government is a powerful one.  But I don't think it stands much scrutiny.