[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

Also remember that although Mulroney did win re-election, he basically destroyed the PC Party as a national force in this country.

I thought it was the Reformers who destroyed the Progressive Conservative party.

[Barrister]

Also remember that although Mulroney did win re-election, he basically destroyed the PC Party as a national force in this country.

I thought it was the Reformers who destroyed the Progressive Conservative party.

The Reform Party was the effect, and not the cause, of the PC downfall (together obviously with the rise of the BQ).

[Jacob]

Also remember that although Mulroney did win re-election, he basically destroyed the PC Party as a national force in this country.

I thought it was the Reformers who destroyed the Progressive Conservative party.

The Reform Party was the effect, and not the cause, of the PC downfall (together obviously with the rise of the BQ).

You know, I didn't follow Canadian politics that closely at the time, but that was my impression. Are you telling me that the PC Party destroyed itself and the Reform Party and BQ rose from those ashes?

[Jacob]

In other news, trouble at Canada Revenue Agency: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/public-servants-blow-the-whistle-on-tax-system-shortfalls

Does anyone here know anything about Canadians for Tax Fairness?

[Barrister]

Also remember that although Mulroney did win re-election, he basically destroyed the PC Party as a national force in this country.

I thought it was the Reformers who destroyed the Progressive Conservative party.

The Reform Party was the effect, and not the cause, of the PC downfall (together obviously with the rise of the BQ).

You know, I didn't follow Canadian politics that closely at the time, but that was my impression. Are you telling me that the PC Party destroyed itself and the Reform Party and BQ rose from those ashes?

Okay, so you have two different parties, with two different sets of issues...

Out west (and later in Ontario) you had Reform, a western based populist party based on western alienation.  These sorts of movements don't show up in a vacuum.  There was tremendous western alienation under the Trudeau years - the feeling that Canada was being run for the benefit of central Canada.  The NEP is perhaps the perfect example of that.  It literally funnelled billions of dollars from the west (mainly Alberta) into Ontario and Quebec.  Mulroney won huge in western Canada in 1984 based on that sentiment, but the feeling was that once he was in power, little changed.  The CF-18 contract was emblematic of this - a Winnipeg based company wrote a superior proposal to maintain the CF-18 jets, but Mulroney chose a Montreal-based company because it would be better 'for the nation'.

So there was a sense of western alienation, Mulroney used it to his advantage, but in power did little to act on that impulse.  Can you really blame the voters in that situation?

Out east it's even more direct.  Mulroney in Quebec came in promising to get Quebec's signature on the Constitution, to write the wrongs of Trudeau's repatriation.  Yet after two tries (Meech Lake and Charlottetown) he couldn't do it.  So various Quebec voters (and several of his MPs) quite the PC Party and formed the new sovereignist BQ.

So you can try to blame the people who left the PC Party (and of course that's what the rump PC party did), but surely it's more useful to look at why people left in the first place.

[Jacob]

Okay, so you have two different parties, with two different sets of issues...

Out west (and later in Ontario) you had Reform, a western based populist party based on western alienation.  These sorts of movements don't show up in a vacuum.  There was tremendous western alienation under the Trudeau years - the feeling that Canada was being run for the benefit of central Canada.  The NEP is perhaps the perfect example of that.  It literally funnelled billions of dollars from the west (mainly Alberta) into Ontario and Quebec.  Mulroney won huge in western Canada in 1984 based on that sentiment, but the feeling was that once he was in power, little changed.  The CF-18 contract was emblematic of this - a Winnipeg based company wrote a superior proposal to maintain the CF-18 jets, but Mulroney chose a Montreal-based company because it would be better 'for the nation'.

So there was a sense of western alienation, Mulroney used it to his advantage, but in power did little to act on that impulse.  Can you really blame the voters in that situation?

Out east it's even more direct.  Mulroney in Quebec came in promising to get Quebec's signature on the Constitution, to write the wrongs of Trudeau's repatriation.  Yet after two tries (Meech Lake and Charlottetown) he couldn't do it.  So various Quebec voters (and several of his MPs) quite the PC Party and formed the new sovereignist BQ.

So you can try to blame the people who left the PC Party (and of course that's what the rump PC party did), but surely it's more useful to look at why people left in the first place.

I agree it's probably more useful to look at the how and why of what happened. Thanks for the summary

[crazy canuck]

Also remember that although Mulroney did win re-election, he basically destroyed the PC Party as a national force in this country.

I thought it was the Reformers who destroyed the Progressive Conservative party.

The Reform Party was the effect, and not the cause, of the PC downfall (together obviously with the rise of the BQ).

You know, I didn't follow Canadian politics that closely at the time, but that was my impression. Are you telling me that the PC Party destroyed itself and the Reform Party and BQ rose from those ashes?

Okay, so you have two different parties, with two different sets of issues...

Out west (and later in Ontario) you had Reform, a western based populist party based on western alienation.  These sorts of movements don't show up in a vacuum.  There was tremendous western alienation under the Trudeau years - the feeling that Canada was being run for the benefit of central Canada.  The NEP is perhaps the perfect example of that.  It literally funnelled billions of dollars from the west (mainly Alberta) into Ontario and Quebec.  Mulroney won huge in western Canada in 1984 based on that sentiment, but the feeling was that once he was in power, little changed.  The CF-18 contract was emblematic of this - a Winnipeg based company wrote a superior proposal to maintain the CF-18 jets, but Mulroney chose a Montreal-based company because it would be better 'for the nation'.

So there was a sense of western alienation, Mulroney used it to his advantage, but in power did little to act on that impulse.  Can you really blame the voters in that situation?

Out east it's even more direct.  Mulroney in Quebec came in promising to get Quebec's signature on the Constitution, to write the wrongs of Trudeau's repatriation.  Yet after two tries (Meech Lake and Charlottetown) he couldn't do it.  So various Quebec voters (and several of his MPs) quite the PC Party and formed the new sovereignist BQ.

So you can try to blame the people who left the PC Party (and of course that's what the rump PC party did), but surely it's more useful to look at why people left in the first place.

The only reason the PCs were routed is because the Reformers split the vote when they created their own party.  Just as any of the three major political parties would lose all their seats if half their support went to a splinter group.  That is also the reason why Harper realized the only way to win the election was to heal that rift.  He did a good job doing it.  It will be very interesting to see whether the next leader is able to keep the two sides together.

[Barrister]

The only reason the PCs were routed is because the Reformers split the vote when they created their own party.  Just as any of the three major political parties would lose all their seats if half their support went to a splinter group.  That is also the reason why Harper realized the only way to win the election was to heal that rift.  He did a good job doing it.  It will be very interesting to see whether the next leader is able to keep the two sides together.

And why did the Reformers go and do that???

I try very hard to not analyze elections as simply "well the voters were idiots".  I didn't come up with that conclusion in this election.  There are reasons why supporters and voters did what they did, and in this case it was because both westerners and Quebec nationalists were deeply alienated by Mulroney's government.

[crazy canuck]

The only reason the PCs were routed is because the Reformers split the vote when they created their own party.  Just as any of the three major political parties would lose all their seats if half their support went to a splinter group.  That is also the reason why Harper realized the only way to win the election was to heal that rift.  He did a good job doing it.  It will be very interesting to see whether the next leader is able to keep the two sides together.

And why did the Reformers go and do that???

I try very hard to not analyze elections as simply "well the voters were idiots".  I didn't come up with that conclusion in this election.  There are reasons why supporters and voters did what they did, and in this case it was because both westerners and Quebec nationalists were deeply alienated by Mulroney's government.

Why did they do it indeed.  My first thought at the time was that they were acting like a petulant child stamping their feet as they left the room because they didn't get their way.  I haven't received any information since which dissuades me of that initial impression.

This has nothing to do with the "voters were idiots".  The idiots were the Reformers who decided that rather than argue for policy they supported within the party they thought it would be a good idea to guarantee years of Liberal rule by creating a splinter party.

[viper37]

In other news, trouble at Canada Revenue Agency: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/public-servants-blow-the-whistle-on-tax-system-shortfalls

Remember when the Liberals let the Bronfman escape Canada with 2 billions in untaxed assets?  It has been going on forever and it ain't likely to change anytime soon.  The targets will change, not the interference.

It is true about the lobby and political pressure, I know someone working there who told me how he was repeatedly told on some files that he should simply "forget it".

What surprised me is the claim the Cons dismantled the teams in charge of tax evasion to put them in general teams.  I was under the impression they did exactly the opposite, create small teams focused specifically on tax evasion in fiscal paradises.  I know they have more tax collectors and they collected (hmm, no, not "collected", only "found") south of 6 billion$ in unpaid taxes from corporations and individuals using illegal fiscal strategy.

[Josephus]

Any of you remember Frank Magazine's "deflower Caroline Mulroney" contest? Around the same time they were also running pics of Mulroney's wife, was her name Mila or something?, pre-nose job.

[crazy canuck]

Any of you remember Frank Magazine's "deflower Caroline Mulroney" contest? Around the same time they were also running pics of Mulroney's wife, was her name Mila or something?, pre-nose job.

I was wondering what your reference was earlier.

No I don't recall it.

[Josephus]

The Ottawa edition of Frank received notoriety in 1991 when the magazine ran a satirical advertisement for a contest inviting young Tories to "Deflower Caroline Mulroney."[3] Mulroney's father, Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, was incensed and threatened physical harm toward those responsible before joining several women's groups in denouncing the ad as an incitement to rape—the magazine maintained, however, that it was commenting on Brian Mulroney's perceived habit of using his daughter as a political prop.

[viper37]

Ah, the government is toying with the idea of increasing the GST.  I'm surprised they doing this so quickly.

[Malthus]

The Libs have only been in office a month, and already their fiscal policies are looking a trifle disappointing. The middle-class tax cut will not be made up for by tax increases on the wealthy, meaning that instead of a budget deficit used to fund infrastructure spending, it looks like a budget deficit to fund unwise election promised tax cuts - usually something one would expect of a conservative party.

If they make up the difference by increasing the GST, that will be even more disappointing. There is no form of taxation more regressive.