[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

Trudeau does not live up to the hype, no.

Can he grow into the role? Maybe.

Will he be worse than Harper? Very unlikely.

[Barrister]

And yet, the Liberals have created the most division in this country.  Before Trudeau the elder, the PQ did not even have a single MP in parliament.  Before Chrétien, there was no seperatist party in Ottawa and no one ever heard of a fringe movement for western independance.  Shortly after his election, there was a 2nd referendum on independance in Quebec.  And I now expect a 3rd one within a few years.

Lolwhat?

Chretien was elected in 1993.  Do you know who the official opposition was in 1993?  The BQ.  It was the Mulroney era that saw the creation of the Bloc.  As for "a fringe movement for western independence" - I'm not sure who you're talking about.  Western separatism has always been fringe.  But if you're talking about Reform A: it was never a separatist party - indeed the original motto was "The West wants in"; and B: it too was created in the Mulroney era, and it was in fact the third largest party in Parliament after the 1993 vote.

I'm no fan of the Liberals, but get your basic facts right.

[Barrister]

Trudeau does not live up to the hype, no.

Can he grow into the role? Maybe.

Will he be worse than Harper? Very unlikely.

Mark my words - Stephen Harper will eventually be judged to be one of the better Prime Ministers we've ever had.

[Jacob]

Mark my words - Stephen Harper will eventually be judged to be one of the better Prime Ministers we've ever had.

People will say anything

But of course he'll be judged one of the better Prime Minsters... he had a three term run, so he's significant - and someone will want to make the argument he did well. There'll always be people who politically agree with him, or who can develop their academic/ pop-history credentials by arguing he was good (or bad). Whether he'll be judged good or bad will depend on the context at the time, what the political debates are when judgement is rendered, and how Harper's record can be used to further the agenda in those debates.

If, say, the consequences of global warming keep ratcheting up leading to catastrophic outcomes globally, then the rest of his legacy will be viewed in light of his hollowing out of climate commitments and his commitment to the oil economy.

On the other hand if whoever follows him (this election or next) preside over a catastrophic collapse of the Canadian economy alongside global economic troubles, then Harper's years will take on a golden glow of "remember the last time the economy wasn't so bad"?

[viper37]

Chretien was elected in 1993.  Do you know who the official opposition was in 1993?  The BQ. 

Chrétien torpedoed the Lake Meech Accord by pure spite.  This gave rise to the Bloc and let them attain official opposition status.

Western separatism has always been fringe.

Do you hear about any seperatist movement now?  Back in the Chrétien days, you would have thought they were in power, as loudly as they were.  They went from "fringe" to "extinct" once Harper got elected.

But if you're talking about Reform A: it was never a separatist party - indeed the original motto was "The West wants in"; and B: it too was created in the Mulroney era, and it was in fact the third largest party in Parliament after the 1993 vote.

As a result of the division created by Chrétien and Trudeau who incited fear in Canada that a seperatist movement would rise from its ahses if Lake Meech Accord was to be accepted.  And they then promoted the Charlottetown accord, side by side with Mulroney, saying in English Canada it would shackle Quebec and in Quebec that it would ensure our future.

I'm no fan of the Liberals, but get your basic facts right.

i got my facts rights, methinks.

[viper37]

Trudeau does not live up to the hype, no.

Can he grow into the role? Maybe.

Will he be worse than Harper? Very unlikely.

Mark my words - Stephen Harper will eventually be judged to be one of the better Prime Ministers we've ever had.

Of course.  Most of the things people hate about him were also done by the Libs.  Most of the things he did right were totally ignored.
Union people talk about how evil is Harper, compare him to Hitler, yet, I was hearing the same silly comments about how neo-liberalism would destroy us when Chrétien was in power.

People from the left are totally irrational, they will even cuddle extremists and try to make you think they are the normal ones. :roll:

[Barrister]

Chretien was elected in 1993.  Do you know who the official opposition was in 1993?  The BQ. 

Chrétien torpedoed the Lake Meech Accord by pure spite.  This gave rise to the Bloc and let them attain official opposition status.

Western separatism has always been fringe.

Do you hear about any seperatist movement now?  Back in the Chrétien days, you would have thought they were in power, as loudly as they were.  They went from "fringe" to "extinct" once Harper got elected.

But if you're talking about Reform A: it was never a separatist party - indeed the original motto was "The West wants in"; and B: it too was created in the Mulroney era, and it was in fact the third largest party in Parliament after the 1993 vote.

As a result of the division created by Chrétien and Trudeau who incited fear in Canada that a seperatist movement would rise from its ahses if Lake Meech Accord was to be accepted.  And they then promoted the Charlottetown accord, side by side with Mulroney, saying in English Canada it would shackle Quebec and in Quebec that it would ensure our future.

I'm no fan of the Liberals, but get your basic facts right.

i got my facts rights, methinks.

I don't think so.  Chretien had nothing to do with vetoing Meech Lake.  He was an opposition politician.  He had nothing to do with it.

And no, you never heard of western separatism now or then.  It was only ever a fringe movement at 1% on the polls.

[Grey Fox]

The unraveling of the Meech Lake accord is the fault of Trudeau SR & Chrétien. Opposition or not, they sowed the seed of dissention. Their action created the 95 referendum movement.

[The Minsky Moment]

Trudeau does not live up to the hype, no.

Can he grow into the role? Maybe.

Will he be worse than Harper? Very unlikely.

Mark my words - Stephen Harper will eventually be judged to be one of the better Prime Ministers we've ever had.

Meh.  He's no Kim Campbell.

[viper37]

I don't think so.  Chretien had nothing to do with vetoing Meech Lake.  He was an opposition politician.  He had nothing to do with it.

he toured Canada to incite against the vote, and he pushed provincial liberals to oppose it to the end.  It's a well known fact.

And no, you never heard of western separatism now or then.  It was only ever a fringe movement at 1% on the polls.

And now it's 0%.
Where they presented candidates, they were just able to make some noise, but still, 6% in some riding indicates the beginning of something.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_Party_of_Alberta

And this:
The Separation Party was not the first separatist party to make a foray into Albertan politics. The Western Canada Concept (WCC) achieved success in the early 1980s, winning a by-election in 1982. The WCC's popularity declined before the end of the decade. The Alberta Independence Party ran 14 candidates in the 2001 general election, but these candidates were designated as independents because the party had not been registered with Elections Alberta. The AIP eventually disbanded.

It seems to appear only when the Liberals are in power.  Coincidence?  I don't think so.

[Josephus]

I couldn't do it. I couldn't vote for Justin.

Okay, so while watching the baseball games the last few days I was exposed to an insane number of political ads.  The Liberals are running one where it's clips of a speech Justin is giving - talking about how leaders need to bring people together.

The content was bland and unexciting, but whatever.  Lots of politics is bland and unexciting.  My thought that was they were presenting it like this was some great political oratory: but to me Justin sounded exactly like the high school drama teacher that he was - over-emphasized, over-enunciated and over-the-top.

So I put it to you Languish - am I wrong?

I'll be the first to agree he does come across stilted and nervous at times. But Harper, to me, comes across rather robotic. Let's be fair, here, none of the leaders strike me as having great oratorical skills.

[Rex Francorum]

Trudeau does not live up to the hype, no.

Can he grow into the role? Maybe.

Will he be worse than Harper? Very unlikely.

Mark my words - Stephen Harper will eventually be judged to be one of the better Prime Ministers we've ever had.

Of course.  Most of the things people hate about him were also done by the Libs.  Most of the things he did right were totally ignored.
Union people talk about how evil is Harper, compare him to Hitler, yet, I was hearing the same silly comments about how neo-liberalism would destroy us when Chrétien was in power.

People from the left are totally irrational, they will even cuddle extremists and try to make you think they are the normal ones. :roll:

Eh, some people from the left are irrational. Same as some people from the right. I don't think a political ideology, per se, removes the brain power. There are idiots everywhere.

[Rex Francorum]

I couldn't do it. I couldn't vote for Justin.

Not that I like the Conservatives, but Liberal Party + Trudeau is an invitation to puke.

[crazy canuck]

I voted.  And picked up my new computer from NCIX.  A good day

[Grey Fox]

While voting I've met 2 people with whom I share a last name & yet we aren't closely related for atleast 4 generations.