[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[garbon]

That said, I wouldn't concede that because you have allowed in same-sex marriages, polygamous ones are now on the table.

[Josephus]

That said, I wouldn't concede that because you have allowed in same-sex marriages, polygamous ones are now on the table.

I don't see why gay marriages don't open up that can of worms. IF one of the key arguments against gay marriage is that "marriage is a contract between a man and a woman", you've pretty much thrown that out the window now. Like I said, I don't really care for it, but I don't see why it's still illegal.

[garbon]

pray about what that means

Pray about what "what" means?

Pray about what it means to be a gay christian (and in particular a gay evangelical christian).  Does it mean you should try "conversion therapy"?  Does it mean you should embrace "gay identity and culture"?  Does it mean Jesus wants you to be celibate, or does it mean He wants to you only have gay sex within marriage?

Are straight people asked the same things? Should they try conversion therapy? Should they embrace a straight identity and culture? Does it mean that Jesus wants them to be celibate, or does it mean He wants them to only have sex within marriage?

I can see that maybe the school pushes on the latter but likely not on the two former. I looked at their website this morning and saw this:

The sanctity of Christian marriage between a man and a woman is fundamentally important to us as evangelical Christians. It relates to important religious teachings about creation and Christ's relationship with his Church. Therefore, we ask all members of our community to respect our traditional biblical interpretation that God intended sexual intimacy only between a man and a woman who are married to each other. Anyone who agrees to participate in our community within the parameters outlined by our Community Covenant is welcome at TWU.

and this:

So "extramarital" sexual relations between an unmarried couple whether gay or straight is unacceptable. But what about legally married same-sex couples?

Civil same-sex marriages are now recognized by Canadian law for secular purposes. But religious views on same-sex marriage differ widely, and legal changes cannot dictate religious belief.

Many religions—including many Christian denominations, and traditional Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Jews—have chosen not to bless same-sex unions. They have official church policies, based upon their traditional religious teachings, defining marriage as being only between a man and a woman.

We share those views and believe Canada has made room for a diversity of beliefs on this issue. The legislation legalizing same-sex marriages in Canada, the Civil Marriage Act [2005], section 3.1, specifically protects religious persons and organizations from being penalized for retaining their traditional definition of marriage.

but also saw this where they denied the charge and then dodge and weave to another topic:

Still, aren't your Christian values disparaging of the gay community? 

Absolutely not. Our University prides itself on open dialogue and critical examination of beliefs and values. Further, our Christian values are founded on love and respect for others. So while some of our beliefs about what behaviour is most in keeping with God's plan for us may differ from those held in the broader community, we are taught to love and respect all people, regardless of their race, religion, or sexual orientation.

In fact, it would be inconsistent with the Community Covenant to do otherwise. When it comes to living out our values, Trinity Western students routinely volunteer to assist low-income residents in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside; build houses with Habitat for Humanity; support health clinics in developing countries; and many of our students, faculty, and staff members have performed needed mission and humanitarian work around the globe in schools, hospitals, shelters, and churches.

On the face it seems they are accepting of gay students as long as those gay students are to some degree self-loathing and willing to abstain from having sexual relations while a student, never mind if Canada considers them married. Certainly they have made the case that they won't kick said student out but then there are ways of making a person feel unwelcome without giving them the boot.

In other words, you can be gay at TWU but prepare to be properly ashamed about being so.

[garbon]

That said, I wouldn't concede that because you have allowed in same-sex marriages, polygamous ones are now on the table.

I don't see why gay marriages don't open up that can of worms. IF one of the key arguments against gay marriage is that "marriage is a contract between a man and a woman", you've pretty much thrown that out the window now. Like I said, I don't really care for it, but I don't see why it's still illegal.

Because I think it changes marriage in a more fundamental way when it becomes a contract you can take with multiple people simultaneously. Seems to me that would have much more fundamental issues for the state and its sanctioning of marriages then a simple loosening of an arbitrary restriction based on state verified biological sex.

[Neil]

The obvious argument against polygamy amoungst consenting adults is that it is devastating to society when you have large numbers of young men with no marriage prospects.  But is terms of principles, there is no difference at all between allowing gays to marry and allowing groups of people to marry.

[garbon]

The obvious argument against polygamy amoungst consenting adults is that it is devastating to society when you have large numbers of young men with no marriage prospects.

I guess if one assumes that only men can opt to have many wives and not other combinations of genders and multiples.

Besides is marriage about solving societal ills? Is society better helped by many men having one wife and several mistresses on the side?

[viper37]

Wasn't being ironic, no. Was being serious. Also, as Garbon said, child marriages and polygamy are not the same thing.
Say a reasonbly-aged married man, wanted to marry a second wife...why does the law stop him? I don't really support it myself, but constitutionally, I'm saying, and legally, I'm surprised there haven't been that many challenges.

In terms of legal marriage, it kinda sets a legal nightmare on who's who, who gets benefits, who gets child custody, etc, etc.

Better leave it as it is now, where people can simply live with more than one person if they want to, so long as they're not married.

[viper37]

Is society better helped by many men having one wife and several mistresses on the side?

yes.

[garbon]

Is society better helped by many men having one wife and several mistresses on the side?

yes.

How so? I mean, I agree with you about the mess for the state but that hardly seems like a benefit that is society wide.

[viper37]

Not sure I understand the logic behind this. Would it not make more sense to allow her to come, but state that her "marriage" isn't valid or recognized in Canada, and offer her protection from her alleged 'husband' - if the intent is to protect her?

I suspect that once here, he would have her pass as a cousin or a sister of one of his wife.

Probably easier to tackle the problem at the source.  Besides, as CC said, it's most likely aimed at religious communities, like Lev Tahor, smuggling children and teenagers accross borders and marrying them to older men.  Or a young boy married to an older woman, if such a thing happens (I've never heard of it in this context, tbh).

[viper37]

How so? I mean, I agree with you about the mess for the state but that hardly seems like a benefit that is society wide.

Imagine a family.  Three husband, each with 4-5 wives who have each 3-4 husbands.  Legally and fiscally, who's who?  If one of the mother and one of the father die in an accident, who gest custody of the child, the distant aunt they never saw or the other people who raised them?
These are tricky questions legally.

Now, if we have a marriage that is between two persons, it concerns them.  The State can grant them some benefits and ease some legal processes in case of death.
But if one of these individuals breaks the individual contract, it's up to that individual to deal with the consequences, not the society as a whole.
Or, the couple could decide to engage in mutual extra-marrital relationship, and again, the State is unconcerned by this.  The law makes it simple, two people united by marriage.
It wouldn't prevent someone from marrying a frog or a dog if his religion requires/permits this, but again, it would not concern the State.  Marriage consumption might be something else though, not sure where we stand on this in Canada

[garbon]

Again that really doesn't seem like a great boon to society, just something that legal system would need to hammer out.

[Josephus]

Sounds to me like it would be a boon for lawyers.

[crazy canuck]

Sounds to me like it would be a boon for lawyers.

How so?  In the 100+ years the law prohibiting polygamy has been on the books there has been exactly 2 prosections and both of them have come in the last 5 years.

[viper37]

Again that really doesn't seem like a great boon to society, just something that legal system would need to hammer out.

Should people who break contracts all be jailed?