[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

Commissioner's report on Trudeau's manufactured crisis of February 2022 was out today.

Unsurprisingly, the Liberal government was justified by using the law.  The legal threshold to meet for that is kinda low, actually, and ill defined.  Something the commissioner reported on when he said the law was new and it was the first time it was invoked, so he granted a lot of leeway in the Liberal government interpretation of the law.

What is somewhat surprising is to see a judge saying the Federalism is totally dysfunctional.  That, I did not expect.  The crisis was manufactured by the Federal and the Provinces (well, mostly Ontario here) refusing to coordinate with one another, the Feds refusing to assume their responsibilities, the police corps keeping information to one another (I agree that sharing information on a sensitive investigation can be problematic, but this was a real time event, RCMP did not send any info to OPP, SQ sent info to RCMP who did not share with OPP).
It's a very critical report for the Liberal government.  Ford gets his share of the blame too, especially for refusing to cooperate.

Of course, it's like Canadians, especially Liberal supporters will wake up about the problems of the country.  I still see a lot of people and opinion pieces basically begging for the Federal takeover of our healthcare.  Davis Inlet in all provinces and territories will be soooo fantastic.

[Grey Fox]

Trudeau's?

The situation was entirely the fault of the Ottawa police department.

[viper37]

Trudeau's?

The situation was entirely the fault of the Ottawa police department.

I wasn't aware the OPD was in charge of the RCMP.

The convoy began across multiple provinces.  It was up to the RCMP to share the information with the OPD about what was happening. The protests were about Trudeau's government and they were happening in the country's capital city, not in Toronto or Oshawa or Cornwall.

The protestors were organized by Russian propaganda and American money.  That's not up to the OPD either, it's the SCRS and RCMP's job.

Trudeau could have offered Ford some help to deal with the crisis, but he never did anything until the crisis reached a breaking point, then he voted himself emergency powers to distract the country from his constant lack of ethics and his cabinet's total disregard for a law voted 17 years ago.  And it worked.  We're only now hearing of it, while we're in the middle of another crisis, for which the Libs share a modicum of responsibility too, with their constant overspending.

[crazy canuck]

I wasn't aware that Trudeau could tell the radical right what to do.

[viper37]

I wasn't aware that Trudeau could tell the radical right what to do.

If that's what you read of the report, you have a serious comprehension problem.

[crazy canuck]

I wasn't aware that Trudeau could tell the radical right what to do.

If that's what you read of the report, you have a serious comprehension problem.

Agreed. I was reacting to the first line of your post in which you claimed that Trudeau manufactured the events that led to the declaration of emergency. I disagree, respectfully, with the conclusions in the report, but I don't think there is any support for the contention that Trudeau manufactured any of this.

I actually wish he had the ability to plan that far ahead.  That skill would greatly assist this government in a number of ways.

[viper37]

I wasn't aware that Trudeau could tell the radical right what to do.

If that's what you read of the report, you have a serious comprehension problem.

Agreed. I was reacting to the first line of your post in which you claimed that Trudeau manufactured the events that led to the declaration of emergency. I disagree, respectfully, with the conclusions in the report, but I don't think there is any support for the contention that Trudeau manufactured any of this.

I actually wish he had the ability to plan that far ahead.  That skill would greatly assist this government in a number of ways.

That crisis could have been stopped right in its track if Trudeau had done its job.

Quebec did not wait on the Feds, unlike other provinces, we do not as heavily depend on our Federal government for that.  As soon as the truckers arrived, they were towed away and their area or protest was surrounded by police corps.


Meanwhile, in Ontario, Ottawa let them occupy the Federal capital and a border bridge under its responsibility.

I'll grant you that Ford's inaction was catastrophic too, but mainly, this was a Federal problem to begin with, and did not share any of the information with the other police corps.

[Grey Fox]

Trudeau's?

The situation was entirely the fault of the Ottawa police department.

I wasn't aware the OPD was in charge of the RCMP.

The convoy began across multiple provinces.  It was up to the RCMP to share the information with the OPD about what was happening. The protests were about Trudeau's government and they were happening in the country's capital city, not in Toronto or Oshawa or Cornwall.

The protestors were organized by Russian propaganda and American money.  That's not up to the OPD either, it's the SCRS and RCMP's job.

Trudeau could have offered Ford some help to deal with the crisis, but he never did anything until the crisis reached a breaking point, then he voted himself emergency powers to distract the country from his constant lack of ethics and his cabinet's total disregard for a law voted 17 years ago.  And it worked.  We're only now hearing of it, while we're in the middle of another crisis, for which the Libs share a modicum of responsibility too, with their constant overspending.

You are over thinking it. All that was need was for the OPD to not let the trucks park and actually do their job. But, they couldn't do that for reasons.

Can't believe I'm gonna defend the racist and hateful RCMP.

The RCMP couldn't in good conscience stop a, at the time, a peaceful protest that hadn't actually happen yet.

For the border crossing situation, yes it's on them.

[viper37]

Trudeau's?

The situation was entirely the fault of the Ottawa police department.

I wasn't aware the OPD was in charge of the RCMP.

The convoy began across multiple provinces.  It was up to the RCMP to share the information with the OPD about what was happening. The protests were about Trudeau's government and they were happening in the country's capital city, not in Toronto or Oshawa or Cornwall.

The protestors were organized by Russian propaganda and American money.  That's not up to the OPD either, it's the SCRS and RCMP's job.

Trudeau could have offered Ford some help to deal with the crisis, but he never did anything until the crisis reached a breaking point, then he voted himself emergency powers to distract the country from his constant lack of ethics and his cabinet's total disregard for a law voted 17 years ago.  And it worked.  We're only now hearing of it, while we're in the middle of another crisis, for which the Libs share a modicum of responsibility too, with their constant overspending.

You are over thinking it. All that was need was for the OPD to not let the trucks park and actually do their job. But, they couldn't do that for reasons.

Can't believe I'm gonna defend the racist and hateful RCMP.

The RCMP couldn't in good conscience stop a, at the time, a peaceful protest that hadn't actually happen yet.

For the border crossing situation, yes it's on them.

The RCMP is responsible for sharing information about what is happening internationally and in other provinces with the local police corps if it can affect them.

They could have coordinated their effort with the OPD, and that is essentially one of the critic of the report.

[Grey Fox]

Of course they could have but the OPD wouldn't have listened and told them to fuck off.

[viper37]

Of course they could have but the OPD wouldn't have listened and told them to fuck off.

You hate the police and assume the worst of them automatically.

Had they had all the information on hand, they may not have acted so friendly with them to try to placate them and convince them to leave.

Imho, they weren't agressive enough, but they never are whenever there are protests, and they always wait until it's too late and have to employ force.

If all protesters in this country were mandated to give their intinerary first to the local police authorities and be held responsible for what happens during their protests, we will have much fewer of these sillyness.

[crazy canuck]

Viper, the Federal government has no jurisdiction over either the Ottawa or Ontario police forces.

What do you mean when you say, "if Trudeau had done his job"?

[viper37]

Viper, the Federal government has no jurisdiction over either the Ottawa or Ontario police forces.

What do you mean when you say, "if Trudeau had done his job"?

They have no direct control over police, but the Minister of Justice can tell the RCMP and the CSIS to cooperate with the OPP and OPD , or ask about their prepartion to stop the convoy when it threatens border security.

The convoy was directed at Ottawa.  The RCMP has jurisdiction over the entire city by Federal and provincial law.  It was fairly easy for them to coordinate with OPD and OPP, exchange information about what they knew of the financing and the involvement of Russian intelligence in the protests.

Unless you are telling me that it was such an unprecendented crisis that the RCMP and CSIS did nothing at all prior to the protest?  They waited until there was an hundred of trucks in Ottawa downtown for a few days until they started wondering what was going on?  They didn't investigate Facebook posts about the protests?  Try to learn about possible foreign interference until the protest was well underway?

So, basically, what you're saying is, if this had been a serious terrorist threat, our Federal police and security service would have done nothing until the actual terrorist attack happened?

Look, the protest was no different than other protests, except it was right wing.  Usually, the RCMP handles security at every protests, in coordination with other police corps.  Be it Charlevoix or Quebec city, the RCMP is there for anything that involves protesting against the Federal govt.  This time, they weren't.

Curious, don't you think?

[crazy canuck]

No, not curious at all.  The evidence is pretty clear that if the Ottawa police chief had acted on the first day to remove the protesters, it would have all fizzled.

You are entering flat earth territory

[viper37]

No, not curious at all.  The evidence is pretty clear that if the Ottawa police chief had acted on the first day to remove the protesters, it would have all fizzled.

You are entering flat earth territory

Did he get specific orders to avoid violence because there were entire families present?
Did he get all the information that more and more trucks were coming in?
Did he get all the information held by the RCMP that these guys were receiving foreign money from day 1?
Did he get the information that this protest was coordinated by Russian intelligence on social medias?

All of this can influence the police attitude toward protestors, from letting them peacefully protest and convince them to leave on their own to adopt a more hostile approach as was done in Quebec city a few weeks later, once they had the knowledge of what was happening in Ottawa.