[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Josephus]

What alternative to capitalism has been successful?

I'm not saying there is. I'm saying capitalism and democracy are incompatible.

[crazy canuck]

I guess Canadians just aren't French enough.

I agree, too many have become too American.

[crazy canuck]

What alternative to capitalism has been successful?

I'm not saying there is. I'm saying capitalism and democracy are incompatible.

I think you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  I agree with you that the current political situation is not consistent with a strong liberal democratic state (hell I am beginning to wonder whether it will survive at all) - I am beginning to wonder if the majority even remembers what that means (not you of course, but the political discourse now present in our society).  But other political choices could be made which would create a taxation system and public policies which harness the productivity and innovation of capitalism to serve the interests of the public good. 

As we have discussed across numerous threads, the wheels started coming off when people bought into the right wing message that small government, little regulation and very low relative taxes for the most wealthy were the way to go.  But that is not inevitable.  it is merely the political choices our societies (and especially the Americans) made.   

[Jacob]

Kevin Falcon (Maxime Bernier supporter) has become the leader of the BC Liberals (a Conservative party).

Also, Pierre Poilievre has announced that he's running for Prime Minister, by which he means the leadership of the Conservatives.

[Jacob]

Also, there are rumblings that the Ottawa Police are going to start issuing tickets every four hours to illegally parked trucks.

Maybe they should've brought sask on earlier?

[crazy canuck]

I guess Canadians just aren't French enough.

I agree, too many have become too American.

It turns out people in Vancouver have at least some French in them - reports of eggs having been thrown at the people trying to pull of a demo in Vancouver.

[OttoVonBismarck]

I am honestly enthused to see Canada becoming less civil and more radical--primarily because it may eventually turn Canada into the kind of place that can eradicate the disgusting French separatists who have been allowed to dominate one of their provinces for far too long.

[viper37]

Quebec Police has told the truckers they need to be gone by the end of the day.  And apparently, they agreed.

Seems like when a government takes a firm stance, it works.

[Malthus]

The demonstrations don't appear to be causing as much disruption in Toronto. Heavy police presence with, so far, no tolerance for trucks settling down to lock up streets; at least so far, no hate symbols or desecration of monuments or buildings.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6341587

Not sure why Ottawa is going through such an ordeal. Maybe other cities learned from their example. Maybe those going to protest in Ottawa were more numerous or more hardcore.

Way I see it, the term "Karen convoy" as a dismissive term for them makes most sense; the emotion fueling these demonstrations is a sort of collective 'I want to speak to your manager' about how long the pandemic restrictions have gone on ... despite the fact that it started over trucks and was in places inspired or co-opted by various fascists and conspiracy lunatics, the most prevalent motive seems to be that.

[viper37]

Viper - Oex called the convoy fascists, not the Conservative Party of Canada.

Just a few lines up, he insisted the Party was doing nothing to reject these people's (fascist) embrance.  It seems like he links the two, like in the US.

I do not think it is a wise course of action to bring US problems into our own.

Given some of the folks in the convoy flew swastika flags, I think it's fair to call at least them fascists?

There are also antifascists flags, and a lot of other flags.  I never denied that some of them were fascists.  I deny that the protest is mainly a fascist event.  It's a melting pot of just about anything and anyone tired of the sanitary measure.

And again, I think they are morons.

[Jacob]

Just a few lines up, he insisted the Party was doing nothing to reject these people's (fascist) embrance.  It seems like he links the two, like in the US.

I do not think it is a wise course of action to bring US problems into our own.

Pierre Poilievre - a Conservative leadership candidate - openly supported the convoy. A number of Saskatchewan MPs - including former Conservative leader Scheer - and a Conservative senator posed with convoy members and thumbs up, saying they support them.

I think it's fair to say that they haven't rejected these people's embrace.

It's not Oex doing the linking, it's the Conservative Party.

Though to be fair, it does seem the Convoy and their supporters are doing their best to remove fascist imagery from their protests now. Still, yesterday there were reports of pro convoy protesters assaulting Asian people with masks downtown, yelling racist slurs at them... so I don't think they're quite in the clear. Would be nice for the Conservative Party to clearly distance themselves from this sort of thing.

[Josephus]

What alternative to capitalism has been successful?

I'm not saying there is. I'm saying capitalism and democracy are incompatible.

I think you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  I agree with you that the current political situation is not consistent with a strong liberal democratic state (hell I am beginning to wonder whether it will survive at all) - I am beginning to wonder if the majority even remembers what that means (not you of course, but the political discourse now present in our society).  But other political choices could be made which would create a taxation system and public policies which harness the productivity and innovation of capitalism to serve the interests of the public good. 

As we have discussed across numerous threads, the wheels started coming off when people bought into the right wing message that small government, little regulation and very low relative taxes for the most wealthy were the way to go.  But that is not inevitable.  it is merely the political choices our societies (and especially the Americans) made.   

Yes. You are right, and I was perhaps being hyperbolic. I'm just worried that the times when we can harness the innovation of capitalism to serve the interests of the public good are long gone. I'm probably more pessimistic about it than you. It seems that more and more people are succumbing to populism, and people are more interested in paying less taxes and having their own narrow interests served than the common good. Again, going back to the history book that will be written about the downfall of democracy; there will be a chapter devoted to the Tea Party,  Trumpism and populism, followed closely by a chapter dedicated to COVID and government restrictions that followed. I'm convinced we are living in the end times of the classic liberal democratic state as we've grown to know it.

I"m not sure what this will lead to. I expect several decades of populism and totalitarianism.

[Jacob]

Well it looks like there's some movement in Ottawa, finally.

Apparently they'll be issuing parking tickets every 4 hours to illegally parked trucks (go go sask), and will be charging people bringing in fuel.

Apparently, also, the fuel depot has been moved away from Confederation Square (to a parking lot a bit further out, accessible by public transit), close to the RCMP quarters.

Separately from the official action, the folks running the class action lawsuit against the organizers and other honkers have said that anyone who leaves by Feb 7th will be dropped from the suit. The companies with vehicles on the name and shame page will have to make some decisions soon, I suppose.

EDIT: ... and, I forgot to add, the mayor has declared a state of emergency, though it doesn't appear to have that much of an impact other than signalling value.

[Jacob]

These guys:

In a statement, organizers said they would not be honking their truck horns Sunday morning.

"Out of respect for the Lord's Day, for members of our military who have sacrificed and who continue to sacrifice so much for our freedom, for the men and women in blue who are doing such a superb job protecting us, and as a gesture of goodwill, members of our Convoy will desist from the blowing of Horns tomorrow, Sunday from 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. Ottawa time," a news release said.

However, horns could still be heard downtown.

[Jacob]

Anyways... Pierre Poilievre is running for the Conservative leadership. From what I've seen, he doesn't come across as someone who's going to do a good job appealing to the middle, what with his strong endorsement of the convoy.

What do you think?

Who else is in the running?

Beeb, please come back and give us the insider view...