[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

Now we have a PMO with much more power than what Harper tried to hold.    Trudeau just has better PR.

and this is a surprise how, exactly?

From the beginning we saw through his lies.  We saw his hypocrisy in denigrating French Canadians, calling their issues "tribalism" while pandering to religious extremists.  You are among those that defended him, and just a few weeks ago, you told me you were better with an immoral and corrupt party in power than the Conservatives.

I doubt you have changed your mind.

I'm happy to be able to live with my conscience, despite Scheer not being the leader I'd hoped he proved to be.

[Barrister]

FUCK!

I realized I had left my CPC leadership vote too late.  I raced down to the Post Office, but short of spending $45 to overnight it to Ottawa, I had left it too late.

Ah well - I am sure that a vote from a single Edmonton riding will not decide the election.  Godspeed, Erin O'toole...

As for proroguing... as a man of consistency I will not criticize it, other than to point out the Liberal hypocrisy on this point.  What is truly scary is the few news reports that  now with Morneau gone Trudeau is planning some giant "transformative" green spending spree.  Doesn't really sound like what we need with a third of a trillion government deficit right now...

[Josephus]

There is one major diff though between 2010and 2020.

With Harper, his government was about to fall in a non-confidence vote. With Trudeau, a non-confidence vote, which is unlikely to pass, is the first thing on the agenda upon the House's return.

[crazy canuck]

But I think this such a transparent play that the brand has been considerably tarnished by confirming it really is the same old Liberal party despite all the protestations to the contrary.

A lot of people saw throught it.  Many saw through it and still voted for them.

was there a vote I missed since this happened 

[Barrister]

There is one major diff though between 2010and 2020.

With Harper, his government was about to fall in a non-confidence vote. With Trudeau, a non-confidence vote, which is unlikely to pass, is the first thing on the agenda upon the House's return.

A confidence vote is always the first thing on the agenda after proroguement.  It's the vote on the throne speech.

[crazy canuck]

There is one major diff though between 2010and 2020.

With Harper, his government was about to fall in a non-confidence vote. With Trudeau, a non-confidence vote, which is unlikely to pass, is the first thing on the agenda upon the House's return.

Agreed.  Harper did it because he correctly calculated that the would be coalition would fall apart if he gave it enough time.  He also knew nobody wanted another election.  This time there is no thought of a coalition and the Conservatives will want an election - the only question is whether the other opposition parties also want one.

[Barrister]

There is one major diff though between 2010and 2020.

With Harper, his government was about to fall in a non-confidence vote. With Trudeau, a non-confidence vote, which is unlikely to pass, is the first thing on the agenda upon the House's return.

Agreed.  Harper did it because he correctly calculated that the would be coalition would fall apart if he gave it enough time.  He also knew nobody wanted another election.  This time there is no thought of a coalition and the Conservatives will want an election - the only question is whether the other opposition parties also want one.

Just so I'm clear - in 2008-2009 was Harper right to prorogue Parliament?  According to you.

And is Trudeau right to do it in 2020?

[crazy canuck]

There is one major diff though between 2010and 2020.

With Harper, his government was about to fall in a non-confidence vote. With Trudeau, a non-confidence vote, which is unlikely to pass, is the first thing on the agenda upon the House's return.

Agreed.  Harper did it because he correctly calculated that the would be coalition would fall apart if he gave it enough time.  He also knew nobody wanted another election.  This time there is no thought of a coalition and the Conservatives will want an election - the only question is whether the other opposition parties also want one.

Just so I'm clear - in 2008-2009 was Harper right to prorogue Parliament?  According to you.

And is Trudeau right to do it in 2020?

No, I was just agreeing with Josephus that the politics are different in each case.

[viper37]

There is one major diff though between 2010and 2020.

With Harper, his government was about to fall in a non-confidence vote. With Trudeau, a non-confidence vote, which is unlikely to pass, is the first thing on the agenda upon the House's return.

The Bloc had sais they would hold a non confidence vote and the Conservatives hinted they would vote with them.  I'm guessing the NDP would have sided, again, with their leftist corrupt brothers of the PLC.

By proroguing, Trudeau was able to dismantle the committees investigation his 3rd (or was it 4th?  I lost count of the official lapses in his ethics) so that despite having a bunch of documents released, they are quite worthless without the ability to call for witnesses that would explain the context, explain who these comments were sent to, etc.

In essence, he is proroguing the parliament to avoid the official investigation that could have convinced all parties to gang up on him and make the party fall and give the public reasons to mistrust him in the next election.

Politically, it's a brilliant move.

Ethically, it's as corrupt as everything else he's done since he was first elected as PM.

And of course, the slightly inclined toward the left medias don't really talk about it, not with the same vitriol they attacked Harper back then.

but it is as expected.

And his supporters will simply follow him blindly as they always have and always will.  There's no difference between a Liberal and a Republican in how they view democracy.

[Josephus]

I don't think any of the parties, other than the Liberals, want a fall election.

The Conservatives are in the midst of a leadership campaign, and won't have their machinery ready in time.
The NDP have less money than I do.

The Liberals are enjoying a 41 per cent poll lead.-- a few more points and they can well fall into majority territory.

It makes sense, especially for the tories, to wait a year or so, when Trudeau will be raising taxes to cover all this spending.

[viper37]

But I think this such a transparent play that the brand has been considerably tarnished by confirming it really is the same old Liberal party despite all the protestations to the contrary.

A lot of people saw throught it.  Many saw through it and still voted for them.

was there a vote I missed since this happened 

There were 2 elections where he was chief of the party.  He was elected at least once before that, if not twice, as MP.  And he was a semi-public figure before being elected.

And the Liberal Party of Canada has been around since... what?  Mid 19th century?  Officially since 1867, let's say.

How many times did we hear they were the "natural governing party of Canada" ?  They see it as an entitlement.  Of curse, when another party leader comes and want the same thing for his party, it's pure evilness and the sign of an hidden agenda to transform Canada in a talibanesque albeit christian country.
Since 1887, how many times has this party broken its most important promises while in power?  How many times has this party, while in the opposition taken a position just because they weren't the one to come with it? 

Let's see those I remember... 1982, sabotaging their own renewal of the Confederation by going behind Quebec's back to twist the arms of the other provincial leaders.  1985, opposition to free trade (Wilfrid Laurier's PLC was pro free trade, and Chrétien became pro free trade once he took power).  1987-1990 vitriolic opposition to Lake Meech Accord, accentuating the divisions between the East and West part of our country.  Trudeau Sr and Chrétien even admitted later there was nothing wrong with the accord, they simply didn't want anything to reform their own "mistakes" (is it a mistake when it's w.a.d.?) of 1982 and were scared that Mulroney would succeed were they failed.  Again, sacrificing the interests of the country for their own.
Referendum campaign of 1980, how many lies did they spread during that time?  Quebecers would lose their pension funds (even if it was provincial), elderlys would no longer have fresh fruits to eat, Americans would invade&annex Quebec, A "NO" meant "YES" to a reform of the Constitution, etc, etc.

Their opposition to Free trade was that we were exchanging a horse for a rabbit and they would cancel the treaty in their first mandate.

1990. to curb the deficit, the Federal govt introduced the GST, replacing the old manufacturing tax of 11% with an open and refundable one of 7% so that it wouldn't be added exponentially to the price of a good or service.  Do you remember their promise of abolishing the tax?  In 1993?  In 1997? In 2001?

During the referendum of 1995, they funnelled tons of money to the NO campaign, infringing on our electoral rules.  They funnelled busloads of recently admitted immigrants to vote, in buses clearly identified with Canada's colours and making sure to hint at what they should vote beforehand.
After 1995, the Federal govt took a clearly hostile position toward Quebec, sabotaging its international relationships, cutting transfers while investing in Ontario to compensate, cutting on renovation expenses to their buildings in Quebec, dragging their feets to compensate the province in case of disasters (Quebec had to sue the govt to get its money).

From the 70s onward, this party sent gazillions of money to English Quebecers to defend their rights.  No French speaker association in Canada has ever received any money from the LPC or from the Federal governt, aside a few million dollars in over 30 years to defend their rights.

When Sault-Ste-Marie and Thunder Bay declared themselves officially unilingual, they didn't raise a finger.  Yet, they kept financing opposition to law 101.

When French rights were under assault in Ontario, New-Brunswick, Manitoba and Alberta they didn't do anything.  When British Columbians were fighting to get equal financing for French schools, they didn't raise a finger, never helped, never tried to pressure the provincial government either, never publicly commented.

When asked about the bilingual school system of New Brunswick and Ontario, twice over our dead Prime Minister expressed his opposition to "tribalism".
Remember the sponsorship scandal?  How much money did Chrétien pocketed for this?  How could he afford to be so rich on earning around 200k$ for a decade, rich enough to buy expensive properties in his home region of Shawinigan?  How much money did the Liberal Party syphoned from  the public coffers to their own?  Did they ever expressed regret?  Not at all.
When it comes time to finance Canada Day, they kept spending absurd amount of money in Quebec to promote it, when most people don't bother with it, except some English Montrealers.
Once Trudeau took over, what changed, really?  A good 1/3 of his MPs had been there during Chrétien's years, many of his ministers had also been there, seeing nothing, hearing nothing...  Most of the advisors had come back to the party and they were back with illegal financing.  And then illegal lobbying, then lack of ethics, than making no difference between their wallets and the public wallet.

But even during the campaign, we knew how vain he was, how much of an idiot he was, and how he admired his father who wrote the manual on concentration of power.
Some people chose to deliberatly vote for a pro-religious radicalism, anti-french, anti-quebec party because they thought, just like Jews who voted for Hitler, that "he could be controlled".

He promised to irresponsibly spend tons of money while we were just recovering from a recession and his supporters applauded.  He promised to wage war on Quebec, and his supporters applauded - worst, many Quebecers voted for him the first time.  He promise to centralize powers like his father did, he campaigned on the fact that the Cons were not doing enough to reach our GGE targets (falsehood) only to immediatly adopt the same targets.  His supporters applauded and found the excuse that he only had 3 months to prepare for the conference.  A year later, we had the same targets, but by then it didn't matter, apparently, we were no longer doomed.
He reignited the divisions between east and west that Harper had patch, and you guys applauded him still.

Everytime he stepped out of the line, these same people found him excuses.

We lost our security council seat, which was apparently the fault of Harper.  6 years later, it seems the Trudeau effect has not materialized...  Canada his now seen as worthless and irrelevant, no longer a partner you can count on for moral leadership.

We apparently had a bad reputation because of Harper and the Conservatives.  Mind you, the people on the street didn't care about that, their opinion of Canada was no worst, no better than before, but apparently, it was all going on behind the scene and we couldn't see it (dixit Oex when I raised the point, before Trudeau's election).  Another way of saying we're too stupid to understand.
Where's Canada's reputation now?  It's even lower than it was.  Our allies know they can't count on us for needed military actions, they know they can't count on us for peacekeeping missions, they know we really don't care about global warming -it's just talk, and they know we don't care about any international issues -except those where our PM can get a good camera pose.
And you're telling me the Conservatives are still the worst party?  Because they tried to stamp religious radicalisation in the country?  Crimes like these happen even more often than before and the PM won't budge a finger to tackle the issue, leaving these people to fend for themselves.  Why?  Because he need the radicals to get the vote out on election day.
And these kind of comments just die.  No ripples.  Yet, it's the Conservative who are the racist ones.   
Former Liberal adviser rips party over racial insensitivity in government ranks

Aziz said that while he worked in the department, he heard staffers referring to certain communities as "ethnic vote banks." He said he was assigned to "brown files" in the department — files dealing with non-white-majority countries — and said he was subjected to "whitesplaining" by colleagues who assumed he wasn't aware of certain cultural nuances because of his skin colour.

That is the Liberal Party you voted for.  That is the party you support.  And we're the racist ones for not voting for them.

[crazy canuck]

There is one major diff though between 2010and 2020.

With Harper, his government was about to fall in a non-confidence vote. With Trudeau, a non-confidence vote, which is unlikely to pass, is the first thing on the agenda upon the House's return.

The Bloc had sais they would hold a non confidence vote and the Conservatives hinted they would vote with them.  I'm guessing the NDP would have sided, again, with their leftist corrupt brothers of the PLC.

By proroguing, Trudeau was able to dismantle the committees investigation his 3rd (or was it 4th?  I lost count of the official lapses in his ethics) so that despite having a bunch of documents released, they are quite worthless without the ability to call for witnesses that would explain the context, explain who these comments were sent to, etc.

In essence, he is proroguing the parliament to avoid the official investigation that could have convinced all parties to gang up on him and make the party fall and give the public reasons to mistrust him in the next election.

Politically, it's a brilliant move.

Ethically, it's as corrupt as everything else he's done since he was first elected as PM.

And of course, the slightly inclined toward the left medias don't really talk about it, not with the same vitriol they attacked Harper back then.

but it is as expected.

And his supporters will simply follow him blindly as they always have and always will.  There's no difference between a Liberal and a Republican in how they view democracy.

Liberals have dropped as of two days ago and the conservatives have gone up

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/poll-tracker/canada/

36% Lib - 30% Con

The Conservatives are not going to have a better chance to take them down then when Parliament resumes - otherwise it is going to be four years before there is another election - and then who knows.  The NPD are, as you say, broke so they might not want to go to an election and without them there is no chance of a non confidence vote.

[Josephus]

The Conservatives are not going to have a better chance to take them down then when Parliament resumes - otherwise it is going to be four years before there is another election - and then who knows.  The NPD are, as you say, broke so they might not want to go to an election and without them there is no chance of a non confidence vote.

Not sure why you say four years? If the NDP doesn't support a no-confidence vote now, there's no reason they won't a year or two from now; especially when, like I said, the Liberals will be forced to raise taxes to attempt to pay off the deficit.

[crazy canuck]

The Conservatives are not going to have a better chance to take them down then when Parliament resumes - otherwise it is going to be four years before there is another election - and then who knows.  The NPD are, as you say, broke so they might not want to go to an election and without them there is no chance of a non confidence vote.

Not sure why you say four years? If the NDP doesn't support a no-confidence vote now, there's no reason they won't a year or two from now; especially when, like I said, the Liberals will be forced to raise taxes to attempt to pay off the deficit.

I think the same logic for the Conservatives holds for the NDP - now is the best chance.  It is wishful thinking to plan for the Liberals to screw up again on this scale.  Although not impossible, they will have about another trillion dollars in new spending to soothe the bad memories (ok only a slight exaggeration).  Only fiscal conservatives are going to worry about that.

[viper37]

Not sure why you say four years? If the NDP doesn't support a no-confidence vote now, there's no reason they won't a year or two from now; especially when, like I said, the Liberals will be forced to raise taxes to attempt to pay off the deficit.

They won't raise taxes before an election, while in a minority government.  They'll rack up deficits and leave the mess for the next government, or next session after they won.
In any case, the NDP would not have any objection to a budget that would significantly raise taxes on the middle class, it's kinda their raison d'être.