[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

had it been as great as religious people seem to think, why would we complain? 

I don't know, you live in a first world nation and enjoy some of the highest standards of living in the world, yet you bitch and complain about "colonizers" on a regular basis.

I strongly suspect it's because you have a lot in common with these religious people you hate.  You want to enforce conformity, you want to force others to think like you, and at the end of the day you want just want people to push around.  It exists in every country, including mine.  Some gather around religion, some around language, some around race.  The cry is the same everywhere, "They are ruining the flower of our culture!"  Whether it is Bolsonaro, or Wilders, or Le Pen, or Trump the story is always the same.

I think the better response to GF is religious people today do not think the residential schools were "great".

And apparently, for most of their history, the majority of the Canadian public thought that they were at least acceptable, regardless of religion.  I'm sure that they didn't have 100% approval--what ever does?--but the majority of the population seems to be fine with them for much of their history.  And probably some of the people who were opposed to them thought that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" and didn't want to see any resources spent on educating natives at all.

It is important to remember that the goal of the residential schools was not to educate indigenous kids.  The stated governmental goal was to assimilate them into white culture so that they would no longer be an "Indian".  That is why they were taken away from their homes (in many cases forcefully as the picture depicts) and they were forbidden to speak their language or engage in any of their cultural practices. 

In effect the goal was the mantra you stated, with a slight modification, the only good Indian is no Indian.

Here is a quote from the architect of the program.

Our objective is to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic and there is no Indian question, and no Indian Department, that is the whole object of this Bill.

If you want to read more, here is the link.

https://www.facinghistory.org/stolen-lives-indigenous-peoples-canada-and-indian-residential-schools/historical-background/until-there-not-single-indian-canada

[Grey Fox]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

had it been as great as religious people seem to think, why would we complain? 

I don't know, you live in a first world nation and enjoy some of the highest standards of living in the world, yet you bitch and complain about "colonizers" on a regular basis.

I strongly suspect it's because you have a lot in common with these religious people you hate.  You want to enforce conformity, you want to force others to think like you, and at the end of the day you want just want people to push around.  It exists in every country, including mine.  Some gather around religion, some around language, some around race.  The cry is the same everywhere, "They are ruining the flower of our culture!"  Whether it is Bolsonaro, or Wilders, or Le Pen, or Trump the story is always the same.

I think the better response to GF is religious people today do not think the residential schools were "great".

And I wouldn't believe you or them.

[Barrister]

They were sold the general public as government-sponsored education. The ostensible purpose was both education and assimilation.

Eventually, knowledge of the abuses perpetuated in these schools leaked out, discrediting them. The abuses showed up in both religious and non-religious boarding schools. Similar abuses were revealed in boarding school-type institutions that were not used for this program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Cashel_Orphanage

In addition, the notion of using isolation from family and forced education  to assimilate people, whether the schools were otherwise abusive of not, came to be seen as morally wrong. 

Residential schools were pretty much all closed by the 70s.  As you say it was now seen as wrong to try and assimilate first nations people (though that was government policy up until the 60s).

News of the abuses only came out much later, starting in the 80s but really got going in the 90s.

[crazy canuck]

And I wouldn't believe you or them.

Then you should read a bit about the apology made by the Vatican in the 2000s

[Barrister]

It is important to remember that the goal of the residential schools was not to educate indigenous kids.  The stated governmental goal was to assimilate them into white culture so that they would no longer be an "Indian".  That is why they were taken away from their homes (in many cases forcefully as the picture depicts) and they were forbidden to speak their language or engage in any of their cultural practices. 

In effect the goal was the mantra you stated, with a slight modification, the only good Indian is no Indian.

I'm going to push back a little bit here.

The goal of residential schools was to both educate them and assimilate them.  The problem was thee was always a tension between those two goals: the student would be educated for a "white" job, but then faced pervasive racism once they graduated that would prevent them from being hired for that job.

The history of residential schools is complex, though on balance quite negative.  But they did do as promised and give the kids that went there an education.  For while many students were forcibly sent, many other first nations parents would write asking for their children to go to the schools.

[crazy canuck]

They were sold the general public as government-sponsored education. The ostensible purpose was both education and assimilation.

Eventually, knowledge of the abuses perpetuated in these schools leaked out, discrediting them. The abuses showed up in both religious and non-religious boarding schools. Similar abuses were revealed in boarding school-type institutions that were not used for this program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Cashel_Orphanage

In addition, the notion of using isolation from family and forced education  to assimilate people, whether the schools were otherwise abusive of not, came to be seen as morally wrong. 

Residential schools were pretty much all closed by the 70s.  As you say it was now seen as wrong to try and assimilate first nations people (though that was government policy up until the 60s).

News of the abuses only came out much later, starting in the 80s but really got going in the 90s.

The last residential school was closed in 1996

[crazy canuck]

It is important to remember that the goal of the residential schools was not to educate indigenous kids.  The stated governmental goal was to assimilate them into white culture so that they would no longer be an "Indian".  That is why they were taken away from their homes (in many cases forcefully as the picture depicts) and they were forbidden to speak their language or engage in any of their cultural practices. 

In effect the goal was the mantra you stated, with a slight modification, the only good Indian is no Indian.

I'm going to push back a little bit here.

The goal of residential schools was to both educate them and assimilate them.  The problem was thee was always a tension between those two goals: the student would be educated for a "white" job, but then faced pervasive racism once they graduated that would prevent them from being hired for that job.

The history of residential schools is complex, though on balance quite negative.  But they did do as promised and give the kids that went there an education.  For while many students were forcibly sent, many other first nations parents would write asking for their children to go to the schools.

Once you look a little more closely at the historical documents, it is not all that complex.  The stated goal of the residential schools was to assimilate and it remained so right up to the modern age.   

You make it sound like job training. 

[Barrister]

Once you look a little more closely at the historical documents, it is not all that complex.  The stated goal of the residential schools was to assimilate and it remained so right up to the modern age.

I didn't say otherwise.  The goal was to assimilate, and they were closed when that was no longer the goal.  I'm curious about the Gordon Residential School (the one that closed in '96) because I've otherwise read they were closed in the 70s (source: a book written by one of the RCAP investigators that's sitting at home).  I wonder if there weren't just some local circumstances.  For example Yukon Hall in Whitehorse was first opened as a residential school, I believe operated into the 90s but from the mid-80s onwards it was owned and operated by the first nations themselves

But don't give me "Once you look a little more closely at the historical documents".  I spent the summer of 1999 working for a law firm that did IRS lawsuits, and spent my time interviewing residential school survivors, and going through the Manitoba archives microfiche records for residential schools.  I've done the first hand research.

But the goal was both to assimilate and educate.

[crazy canuck]

The residential schools were closed in BC by the mid 80s. 

[crazy canuck]

But don't give me "Once you look a little more closely at the historical documents".  I spent the summer of 1999 working for a law firm that did IRS lawsuits, and spent my time interviewing residential school survivors, and going through the Manitoba archives microfiche records for residential schools.  I've done the first hand research.

Excellent.  Then you should know a bit more about it then you let on 

[Barrister]

But don't give me "Once you look a little more closely at the historical documents".  I spent the summer of 1999 working for a law firm that did IRS lawsuits, and spent my time interviewing residential school survivors, and going through the Manitoba archives microfiche records for residential schools.  I've done the first hand research.

Excellent.  Then you should know a bit more about it then you let on 

I will always remember going out to a reserve to conduct an interview with a residential school litigation client.  He had interviewed with the firm before, but was ill and wanted someone to come to him.  I believe he had directed some work to the firm back in the day so, even though it wasn't really necessary, the firm sent me.

This fellow had (obviously) gone to a residential school.  He had gotten a decent education there, went on to become at first a teacher, and later an administrator, but was now retired. [which goes to my point they did also educate the kids there]

Anyways, he had previously told us about how he was sexually molested during his time at the school.  He wasn't molested by staff, but rather by the older kids there.  Which again was not uncommon.

When I came to see him he was to ill to get out of bed.  What he now felt he needed to tell us that when he was older, he then in turn molested the younger boys at the school.  I don't think he had ever told anyone that, and it felt to me like he was making a near deathbed confession.

I don't think that made any difference to his lawsuit - that's what the cycle of abuse is all about!  That's part of what made residential schools such toxic places to be.

I should also say I suppose I did interview other survivors who were not sexually abused, and the only physical abuse they suffered was no more or less than you'd expect in any school in the 50s or 60s (some described physical abuse that was more extreme though).  They all of course though did suffer from the loss of their language and culture, which is why in the ending residential school compensation there were payments made for simply attending a school, even without any proof of physical or sexual abuse.

Like I said - complex.

[PRC]

Confirming that government only has authority over what it will offer to doctors who wish to perform those services. 

If government really had control it could not only change the tariff but force doctors to work under the tariff.  Plenty of health care professionals are fleeing the province or simply reverting to a fully private practice.  So much for control.

Who is fleeing the province?  This is breaking news from today.

Have been since this government was electing.  Everyone in the field saw this coming.

Link me baby.

https://www.facebook.com/Claro-Family-Practice-367851817003210

[Barrister]

Physicians choosing not to move to Alberta is not the same as physicians currently in Alberta "fleeing" the province before the change in the agreement was even announced.

[Grey Fox]

If one of your stated goal is to assimilate, it doesn't matter at all what other goals you tacked on after or before.

@CC sure, I could or just point to the 3 post by BB since you told me that.

[dps]

In the US, we tend to see assimilation as a good thing.  But then again, we don't take assimilation to mean that you have to completely give up your culture, more that we will just absorb some of your culture into ours.  If you're Italian, we don't make you give up pasta, we just start eating it, too.  And besides, you stole it from the Chinese, anyway.