[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Oexmelin]

As leftwing propagandist artwork goes, Soviet posters kick that tripe to the curb.

Surely you can see the difference between state-mandated propaganda art, and an artist's own singular vision.

[Camerus]

Surely I can. What's your point?

[Oexmelin]

That a comparison with USSR propaganda is far-fetched.

[Razgovory]

So more Streicher than Zhdanov?

[Camerus]

That a comparison with USSR propaganda is far-fetched.

In the author's ability to disseminate and enforce, sure.

[crazy canuck]

When did this even occur? The kids running away look like they are wearing blue jeans.  Also all the RCMP guys look like they are clones.

I don't know the actual context for the image but it's probably the 60's scoop.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixties_Scoop

More likely kids being forced to attend residential schools.  There are nuns and a priest in that picture.

@Raz It happened into the 70s.

[dps]

It's the job of the police to enforce the laws.  It's not really their fault if the laws are bad. 

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

[viper37]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

had it been as great as religious people seem to think, why would we complain?  People getting a decent education, respectful of their own values while at the same time teaching them to embrace the modernity of sciences and integrate it into their spiritual and cultural traditions... why would anyone ever complain about that?

But you very well know that it is not how it ever happenned when religion mixes with government, like in this case.  Kids were forced to cut their hairs, kids received a beating for speaking something else than english, kids were abused and the hierarchy closed its eyes because they were saving their souls.  What if people don't want to be saved like this?  It's apparently evil to tell a religious zealot he can't request a man instead of a woman to serve him, but it's ok to torture kids in the name of our God?

Quebec had its own religious schools were orphans were sent and they suffered the same kind of abuses (albeit without the forced language change) by religious figures, with the same general indifference of the clergy.

We have cases of various religious schools were such abuses are common and the communities are fighting tooth and nail to defend their religious system.  And there are people still willing to tolerate this.  Worst, there are people who want this to happen again.

If at least Christianity or Judaism or Islam were some kind of religious belief where they sacrifice humans in a lava pit after removing their beating heart form their chest, I'd understand.

[viper37]

It's the job of the police to enforce the laws.  It's not really their fault if the laws are bad. 

Just like a soldier's duty is to obey orders, I guess.

[dps]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

had it been as great as religious people seem to think, why would we complain?  People getting a decent education, respectful of their own values while at the same time teaching them to embrace the modernity of sciences and integrate it into their spiritual and cultural traditions... why would anyone ever complain about that?

I'm not defending the practice.  Canada, in essence, had contracted out the education of Indian children to churches, which shouldn't have been done.  But I suspect most of the same abuses would have happened if the government had run the resident schools directly. 

[crazy canuck]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

had it been as great as religious people seem to think, why would we complain?  People getting a decent education, respectful of their own values while at the same time teaching them to embrace the modernity of sciences and integrate it into their spiritual and cultural traditions... why would anyone ever complain about that?

I'm not defending the practice.  Canada, in essence, had contracted out the education of Indian children to churches, which shouldn't have been done.  But I suspect most of the same abuses would have happened if the government had run the resident schools directly.

Some were government run and yes the abuses were just as bad.

[Razgovory]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

had it been as great as religious people seem to think, why would we complain? 

I don't know, you live in a first world nation and enjoy some of the highest standards of living in the world, yet you bitch and complain about "colonizers" on a regular basis.

I strongly suspect it's because you have a lot in common with these religious people you hate.  You want to enforce conformity, you want to force others to think like you, and at the end of the day you want just want people to push around.  It exists in every country, including mine.  Some gather around religion, some around language, some around race.  The cry is the same everywhere, "They are ruining the flower of our culture!"  Whether it is Bolsonaro, or Wilders, or Le Pen, or Trump the story is always the same.

[crazy canuck]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

had it been as great as religious people seem to think, why would we complain? 

I don't know, you live in a first world nation and enjoy some of the highest standards of living in the world, yet you bitch and complain about "colonizers" on a regular basis.

I strongly suspect it's because you have a lot in common with these religious people you hate.  You want to enforce conformity, you want to force others to think like you, and at the end of the day you want just want people to push around.  It exists in every country, including mine.  Some gather around religion, some around language, some around race.  The cry is the same everywhere, "They are ruining the flower of our culture!"  Whether it is Bolsonaro, or Wilders, or Le Pen, or Trump the story is always the same.

I think the better response to GF is religious people today do not think the residential schools were "great".

[dps]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

had it been as great as religious people seem to think, why would we complain? 

I don't know, you live in a first world nation and enjoy some of the highest standards of living in the world, yet you bitch and complain about "colonizers" on a regular basis.

I strongly suspect it's because you have a lot in common with these religious people you hate.  You want to enforce conformity, you want to force others to think like you, and at the end of the day you want just want people to push around.  It exists in every country, including mine.  Some gather around religion, some around language, some around race.  The cry is the same everywhere, "They are ruining the flower of our culture!"  Whether it is Bolsonaro, or Wilders, or Le Pen, or Trump the story is always the same.

I think the better response to GF is religious people today do not think the residential schools were "great".

And apparently, for most of their history, the majority of the Canadian public thought that they were at least acceptable, regardless of religion.  I'm sure that they didn't have 100% approval--what ever does?--but the majority of the population seems to be fine with them for much of their history.  And probably some of the people who were opposed to them thought that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" and didn't want to see any resources spent on educating natives at all.

[Malthus]

And I have a sneaking suspicion that GF's outrage isn't because of the inherent injustice of the residential school system, or because of the abuses that occurred, but because the schools were run by religious organizations.

had it been as great as religious people seem to think, why would we complain? 

I don't know, you live in a first world nation and enjoy some of the highest standards of living in the world, yet you bitch and complain about "colonizers" on a regular basis.

I strongly suspect it's because you have a lot in common with these religious people you hate.  You want to enforce conformity, you want to force others to think like you, and at the end of the day you want just want people to push around.  It exists in every country, including mine.  Some gather around religion, some around language, some around race.  The cry is the same everywhere, "They are ruining the flower of our culture!"  Whether it is Bolsonaro, or Wilders, or Le Pen, or Trump the story is always the same.

I think the better response to GF is religious people today do not think the residential schools were "great".

And apparently, for most of their history, the majority of the Canadian public thought that they were at least acceptable, regardless of religion.  I'm sure that they didn't have 100% approval--what ever does?--but the majority of the population seems to be fine with them for much of their history.  And probably some of the people who were opposed to them thought that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" and didn't want to see any resources spent on educating natives at all.

They were sold the general public as government-sponsored education. The ostensible purpose was both education and assimilation.

Eventually, knowledge of the abuses perpetuated in these schools leaked out, discrediting them. The abuses showed up in both religious and non-religious boarding schools. Similar abuses were revealed in boarding school-type institutions that were not used for this program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Cashel_Orphanage

In addition, the notion of using isolation from family and forced education  to assimilate people, whether the schools were otherwise abusive of not, came to be seen as morally wrong. 

The were thus two types of wrongs perpetuated by these institutions: the abuse of children (which were by no means specific to the residential schools) and the forced assimilation (that was specific to them). The former was an endemic problem of any institution in which vulnerable people are ruled over by functionaries who are not held adequately accountable. The latter was the fault of the government's policy.

In neither case does it make sense to blame the Mounties, who neither perpetuated the abuse of kids within the schools, nor set government policy.