[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

How about we act like we've known each other for more than a decade?

I'm not sure that'd be a big improvement...

[garbon]

It can't hurt.

[Valmy]

*sigh*

Whatever. But come now. Jinnai is not 'someone associated with Pakistan' he is one of the most important figures in the entire 20th century whose influence and legacy stretch well beyond Pakistan. So yeah I have an opinion on him and surprise I am not a fan. Doesn't mean somebody should vandalize public property or hate all Pakistanis or become a hardline Canadian white nationalist. In fact by not doing those things you are doing a bit to undermine Jinnai's nationalist philosophy.

But fair enough. Go on then.

[Malthus]

See, I have repeatedly said that isn't my message. Why are you both insisting I was linking Native Canadian objections to Bernier's views, when I did nothing of the kind?

Because you entered the discussion by taking up a question directed at Barrister - asking him if he could give concrete examples of "Trudeau's extreme multiculturalism" being antithetical to "Canadian identity," which formed the core of Bernier's tweets: http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,4648.msg1150841.html#msg1150841 and started talking about the Canadian

You realize two groups can have completely different reasons for objecting to something, which is great. Why are you both insisting I can't?

The only reason I can think of, is to kick the shit out of a strawman of your own design.

The actual reason is that I was trying to understand the substance of Beeb's agreement with Bernier that Trudeau exhibits some sort of "extreme multiculturalism" which does a disservice to "Canadian identity"-  and you responded to that by introducing the First Nations tangent that is presently dominating the conversation.

I appreciate now - after this back and forth - that you're not using First Nations ambivalence about the potential use of multiculturalism to undermine their claims as an argument to support Bernier's POV (and indeed the current Chief of the National Assembly of First Nations has called Bernier out on his anti-multiculturalism crusade). But that is how you came across to me at first, no strawman intended.

As an aside, Beeb has not yet at this point articulated an answer to the question. How is the current government's approach to multiculturalism extreme? And how is it harmful to Canada?

Well, as to the first point - I suspect Bernier's position has absolutely nothing to do with any actual difference in policy between the Libs and Cons, as there is very little actual difference.

Rather, it has to do with making political hay out of statements by Trudeau that imply Canada lacks any sort of identity of its own, which is stated in the very article itself (and which I quoted):

Notably, in an interview with the New York Times Magazine in 2015, Trudeau said Canada has "no core identity" and "no mainstream" adding he sees Canada as the "first post-national state."

To some ears, that sounds a lot like 'other people around the world have culture, which ought to be respected - but you, whose ancestors were (say) English or French, whose families have lived here in some cases for centuries, don't'. If that's what they are hearing, it isn't surprising that they are unhappy about it.

I of course have a quite different understanding of what Trudeau meant - that no one cultural identity, or even two or three, ought to be dominant over others (and so be a 'core identity'); rather, our 'core identity' is made up of respect for our laws and institutions -- the good old Canadian 'peace, order and good government'. Assuming this is what Trudeau meant, I agree with him.

The Native Canadian side-track was not to claim Native Canadians support Bernier - which as far as I see, they don't - but merely to point out that this Trudeau vision of multiculturalism - which, as I point out, I agree with - simply isn't compatible with having two or three "founding peoples" (or as CC would insist, two founding peoples and a pre-existing set of nations). This latter position is highly imbedded in Canadian laws, which provide special status to English, French and First Nations.

This is what I see is a central bit of cognitive dissonance in small-l liberal Canadian politics: we want, at one and the same time, to be "multicultural" (and so have no dominant 'core identity'), while celebrating and legally favouring the 'founding peoples' - English, French, and First Nations.

The two positions are fundamentally incompatible. Multiculturalism is a denial of a 'core identity' and having 'founding peoples' given special legal status is an assertion of a 'core identity', albeit not a single 'core' but rather two or three.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah I'm sure V doesnt care about racism.

How about we act like we've known each other for more than a decade?

If I was to go by what I thought people would have said, based on knowing them for a decade, I would have never guessed that BB would say there was nothing wrong with the tweets. 

I was also surprised that Valmy would respond to the story that the park sign was vandalized by saying he couldn't understand why the park would have been named like that in the first place.  Not too far off from blaming the victim.

So how to respond to that sort of thing, just let it all slide and not comment as our society becomes more influenced by the kind of comments Bernier made.  Or speak up.  My choice is the latter.

*sigh*

Whatever. But come now. Jinnai is not 'someone associated with Pakistan' he is one of the most important figures in the entire 20th century whose influence and legacy stretch well beyond Pakistan. So yeah I have an opinion on him and surprise I am not a fan. Doesn't mean somebody should vandalize public property or hate all Pakistanis or become a hardline Canadian white nationalist. In fact by not doing those things you are doing a bit to undermine Jinnai's nationalist philosophy.

But fair enough. Go on then.

Ok, it was pretty easy for you to figure out why a group of Canadians of Pakistani heritage might want to name a park after him. Not sure why you said it was beyond you.  Especially in the context of vandalizing the park, but at the very least my rebuke has caused you to clarify that you are not in agreement with what occurred even if you do not approve of the naming choice these people made.

[PRC]

Max Bernier quits the Conservative party, starts his own party, and rails against Supply Management... if supply management was such an issue for "many in the caucus" why wasn't it dealt with during Harper's tenure?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bernier-statement-conserative-1.4795894

MP Maxime Bernier quits 'morally corrupt' Conservatives, plans to start new party

Catharine Tunney · CBC News · Posted: Aug 23, 2018 11:05 AM ET | Last Updated: 11 minutes ago

Divisive Quebec MP Maxime Bernier made a scorched earth exit from the Conservatives today, while announcing plans to start his own federal party.

Bernier, who represents the riding of Beauce, made the announcement Thursday morning in Ottawa as the party's policy convention kicks off in Halifax.

"I have come to realize over the past year that this party is too intellectually and morally corrupt to be reformed," he said,  on the heels of controversial tweets he posted regarding diversity.

"I know for a fact that many in the caucus privately oppose supply management, but buying votes in a few key ridings is more important than defending the interests of Canadians."

Bernier said his goal is to head a party that runs candidates in Canada's 338 ridings.

"We'll have a lot of Canadians and that new party will win the next election.

Bernier has caused waves on the national scene, and within his own party, for recent tweets regarding Canada's diversity. They have been labelled xenophobic by some commentators, while others view them as the start of a much-needed debate over Canadian identity and the role of immigration.

Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer said Bernier was more occupied with advancing his own profile than the needs of the party.

"Today Maxime made a choice," he told reporters in Halifax. "He decided today to help Justin Trudeau."

Leading up to Bernier's announcement some prominent Conservatives rallied around Scheer.

Ontario Premier Doug Ford tweeted support for the leader, while Kory Teneycke, the former director of communications for Stephen Harper and a Bernier supporter in the leadership race, penned an opinion article for the Toronto Sun backing Scheer for prime minister.

Earlier this summer, Bernier was banished from the Tory front bench and stripped of his innovation critic title.

At the time, a Conservative MP who spoke to CBC News on the condition he not be identified said Bernier was removed because of his decision to post a chapter from his book on his website. The MP wrote that Scheer's victory as party leader was owed to "fake Conservatives" who only joined the party to defend supply management in the dairy industry.

Peter d'Entremont, who sits on the board of directors of the Libertarian Party of Canada, said it tried to court Bernier to leave the Conservative Party and join its cause, but he wasn't interested.

[crazy canuck]

Great, a replay of Reform's temper tantrum.

10 more years of Liberal government, without risk of electoral defeat.... not optimal.

[Malthus]

I agree, assuming this guy has any following - a split of the conservative vote ensuring Liberal domination for a while to come.

Though equally likely that he doesn't have much and that his proposed party-of-one will dry up and blow away.

[crazy canuck]

I agree, assuming this guy has any following - a split of the conservative vote ensuring Liberal domination for a while to come.

Though equally likely that he doesn't have much and that his proposed party-of-one will dry up and blow away.

I think there is a good chance he will take the old time Reformers.  They are the ones who backed his leadership bid and he did get almost 50% support.  If he only attracts the Reformers he will do enough damage.  It will be interesting to see what comes of this in about 20 years.   I wonder how those Liberals who were waiting for Trudeau to fail are feeling about their chances now 

[Oexmelin]

Yes, analysts in the French language press were quick to point out Bernier's latest outbursts were aimed at appearing the victim, which plays well in many conservative circles.

[Camerus]

The proof of their moral corruption - indeed the sole example - is the Conservatives' complete and utter perfidy in choosing another candidate for leader. 

[Jacob]

My main question is whether Beeb is going to support Bernier's new party, or stick with the current crop of Conservatives.

[crazy canuck]

My main question is whether Beeb is going to support Bernier's new party, or stick with the current crop of Conservatives.

We should start a pool.  My bet is he goes with Bernier based on:

1) he has a track record of leaving the Conservative party to follow a leader he supports;
2) he supported Bernier's leadership bid;
3) he agrees with Bernier's policies.

[Camerus]

I can't imagine too many Conservative voters care enough about the holy trinity of dairy supply management, rabid anti-multiculuralism, and Maxime Bernier's wounded ego to support this venture seriously - especially given its enormous political price tag (handing Trudeau another victory).

I suspect if he really goes ahead with it (and that may not really be his goal) it will pick up a small handful of seats max before fizzling out.

[Ancient Demon]

He might as well. If Scheer's Conservatives will govern just like the Liberals, what difference does it make if Trudeau stays in power?