[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Josephus]

Although I'm not fussed either way over electoral reform, I am disappointed that he never gave a serious effort at following up one of his key campaign promises.

[viper37]

Liberals also abandon Electoral Reform:

told you so.

[Grey Fox]

It was a stupid thing to promess because, as this shows, you are just setting yourself up to be criticize.

[Ancient Demon]

Speaking of the Conservative party race... someone hung this up on the Collingwood office of Kellie Leitch last night:

I hope someone remembers to do this to a Liberal party office next time a Muslim kills someone.

[Ancient Demon]

Although I'm not fussed either way over electoral reform, I am disappointed that he never gave a serious effort at following up one of his key campaign promises.

I think most Canadians could be convinced of the merits of proportional representation, but I doubt that's the system Trudeau wanted.

[Drakken]

Proportional representation is unworkable in Canada, given the obligation to keep senatorial floor. Something that PR supporters conveniently shirk to address. If you expect the Maritimes and Saskatchewan to follow with PR, you are living in la-la-land.

Everyone who are supporting PR in Canada all fail to explain or present how they would implement it in reality. And it was obvious why the NDP was raving about it - to the point of calling an out-right war on the Liberals if they pushed anything else.

In the end of the day, the NDP killed it with their intransigence. The Liberals wanted it, but the NDP cynically obstructed the process as it didn't go their way. The Highway, then. The Opposition were given the tools to come to a consensus and they elected to play petty-politics.

[Camerus]

Good. Our current system, the product of centuries of democratic evolution, already works quite well.

[Valmy]

Good. Our current system, the product of centuries of democratic evolution, already works quite well.

Ghost Burke applauds this sentiment.

[Camerus]

Good. Our current system, the product of centuries of democratic evolution, already works quite well.

Ghost Burke applauds this sentiment.

Beeb isn't the only Edmontonian Burkean around here. 

[Oexmelin]

Everyone who are supporting PR in Canada all fail to explain or present how they would implement it in reality. And it was obvious why the NDP was raving about it - to the point of calling an out-right war on the Liberals if they pushed anything else.

There are a bunch of scenarios, many of which are quite detailed in their proposed implementation. Most people who are seriously advocating PR in Canada (like, in fact, the NDP) do so from the perspective of a mixed system, which would preserve regional representation by electing some MPs on a geographical, first-past-the-post system, and having a number of MPs elected from a list, represented proportionally to the votes they would obtain.

[Drakken]

There are a bunch of scenarios, many of which are quite detailed in their proposed implementation. Most people who are seriously advocating PR in Canada (like, in fact, the NDP) do so from the perspective of a mixed system, which would preserve regional representation by electing some MPs on a geographical, first-past-the-post system, and having a number of MPs elected from a list, represented proportionally to the votes they would obtain.

You mean like in Germany, where there are two classes of representatives: one half composed of party-hacks elected from a list by PR but without real legitimacy, and the other half elected by, shock and gasp, the first-past-the-post system by their local constituents?

That looks good in theory and work - somewhat - for a country with a relatively medium-sized area and diffused concentrations of urbanized population like Germany. But Canada has a vast, mostly empty geopgraphy with very few concentrations of population - which means lots of varied local issues and an overwhelming demographic weight for Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver compared to the rural areas.

Plus, this system creates a layer of MPs who answer only to their party masters inside the party apparatus, not the people, because they are the ones who determine the lists. That means, those members are elected without any local connection from their communities, but on their overall weight inside the party. This is exactly the case in Germany - locally-elected members of the Bundesdag weigh more than PR-elected members.

It came repeatedly during our roundtables and consultations on ER - people say they want their governments to be more open to external influences and suggestions, but they do not want coalitions because it means that the government is held hostage to third-party partners. In their minds, PR meant coalitions, hung parliaments and instability, and policy-making decided behind close-doors between coalition partners outside the public view. Even in mixed-systems, that system invariably gives exaggerated level of influence to parties that come in close second or third place... like, suspiciously, the NDP.

Weird, isn't it?

Lastly, again, senatorial floor - which is in the Constitution and cannot be played with. Conveniently ignored, until it bites us in the ass in front of the Supreme Court. Because those additional PR-elected MPs, how will they spreaded across the provinces? What about the territories? Why PEI should have only 1 because of the size of their population, when under the Constitution they are guaranteed 4 due to senatorial floor? What about minimum thresholds, are we to allow parties that get only 1% of the PR vote in?

In such conditions, in absence of a real, clear consensus among the electors, and with the obvious bad faith of the Opposition who, I remind you, were granted a majority on the Commission we are better keeping the FPTP until we have partners who are interested in having a real, open debate about reforming our electoral system. I may be partial, but even if I were not Liberal I would not blame the Liberals here - never have we been closer to real electoral reform than under Justin Trudeau. The party that finally had the occasion to succeed in reforming the system and fucked it all up by playing hard-ball - and should be thrown to the wolves - is the NDP.

[Barrister]

Good. Our current system, the product of centuries of democratic evolution, already works quite well.

Ghost Burke applauds this sentiment.

Beeb isn't the only Edmontonian Burkean around here. 

You're in Edmonton dude?  We should meet up!  PM me!

[Grey Fox]

We can't have PR, pure of mixed, when our parties are so adverse to coalitions. Going into elections every year like we're fucking Belgium is not something any of us should be looking for.

[crazy canuck]

We can't have PR, pure of mixed, when our parties are so adverse to coalitions. Going into elections every year like we're fucking Belgium is not something any of us should be looking for.

I am not sure why you have come to that conclusion.  We have had minority governments in the recent past without the threat of constant elections.

[Grey Fox]

We can't have PR, pure of mixed, when our parties are so adverse to coalitions. Going into elections every year like we're fucking Belgium is not something any of us should be looking for.

I am not sure why you have come to that conclusion.  We have had minority governments in the recent past without the threat of constant elections.

Elections in 2004, 2006 & 2008.