[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

I haven't been following BC politics recently. What's the current crop of NDPers like? Better or worse than average?

The current leader of the party - Adrian Dix, was the poltical adviser to Glen Clark when he was Premier.  Dix is the guy who changed the date on a memo that was material to a corruption investigation which was targeting Clark - oh the irony!  When it was discovered that Dix falsified the document he was terminated.

Clark was tried and acquited of all charges.  He has gone on to work for this Province's leading businessman, Jimmy Pattison and by all reports has done very well in the business world.

The great irony is that only wrongdoing in the whole affair belonged to Dix.


So in answer to your question, imo, worse. 

[Jacob]

So in answer to your question, imo, worse.

That doesn't sound too promising.

In your opinion, what are the specific area in which Dix' NDP is most likely to fuck shit up? I mean, I know you'll say "the economy", but I'm wondering if there are any specific proposals or area of interest where you think they'll do real damage? I mean, if it's just that they'll raise taxes a bit and not legislate the teachers back to work, I'm fine with that; but if there is more specific substantial foolishness on the horizon, I'd like to hear about that.

As for the almost inevitable NDP victory, what's going on there? Is it just that the Liberals have been in for too long and the usual accumulation of minor mistakes and mud means the public is ready for a change, or is there a more compelling narrative at work here?

I really have only a vague idea about BC politics, to be honest.

[crazy canuck]

One piece of legislation the Liberals abolished when they became government is the best example.  It was the Corporate Capital tax.  taxing profits wasnt good enough for them.  They imposed a tax on all assets.  Assets were so broadly defined that it even included money that had been borrowed.

Dix is now saying they will only reinstitute the hated tax on financial institutions.  But the last NDP goverment promised they would not impose it at all and then when they broke that promise they kept promising to remove it - but didnt.  Again remember who the political advisor was back then - Dix.

The Liberals also brought in secret ballots for union certification/decertification votes - before that the union could monitor/pursuade people to vote a certain way.  Union membership has dropped and it is not surprising that NDP supporters want to re-institute a less democratic model.

As for the teachers dispute, the main sticking point in the dispute is that the union wants to go back to regional bargaining rather than province wide bargaining.  But it was NDP premier Clark on the advice of Dix who made that change.  In doing so the NDP also had to legislate the teachers back to work.  The BCTF have been almost impossible to deal with since about 1972. 

The NDP will win because of the blowback from the HST.  The Libs are currently at 20% in the polls but more importantly the provincial conservative party is gaining support.  Whenever there is a split in the centre right vote the NDP win.  The the coalition reforms to kick the socialists out.  We are just at that phase of the cycle.  Again barring a miracle.

[Josephus]

Josephus, the fact that the NDP poll well says more about the fact the Libs are still in the wilderness and that any protest vote against the Conservatives is going to go to the NDP.  It is also not surprising that there is a protest vote early in a majority mandate on the eve of a budget designed to reduce government spending.

I never really implied anything else. I'm glad the Libs are in a wilderness and hope they stay there.

[crazy canuck]

I never really implied anything else. I'm glad the Libs are in a wilderness and hope they stay there.

As do I.  I think it will have the positive effect of continuing to moderate the NDP and the Conservatives as they compete for the middle.

[Jacob]

One piece of legislation the Liberals abolished when they became government is the best example.  It was the Corporate Capital tax.  taxing profits wasnt good enough for them.  They imposed a tax on all assets.  Assets were so broadly defined that it even included money that had been borrowed.

Dix is now saying they will only reinstitute the hated tax on financial institutions.  But the last NDP goverment promised they would not impose it at all and then when they broke that promise they kept promising to remove it - but didnt.  Again remember who the political advisor was back then - Dix.

Yeah, that doesn't sound too good. Is it fair to say that you dislike and distrust Dix?

The Liberals also brought in secret ballots for union certification/decertification votes - before that the union could monitor/pursuade people to vote a certain way.  Union membership has dropped and it is not surprising that NDP supporters want to re-institute a less democratic model.

Really? That's sort of weird, because in some other places secret ballots for certification/ desertification is considered a pro-union thing, something that protects the workers from repercussions from the employer. But here in BC, secret ballots are considered anti-union because it prevents the union from hectoring wavering supporters? Weird. Personally, I think secret ballots for union certification is a good thing.

As for the teachers dispute, the main sticking point in the dispute is that the union wants to go back to regional bargaining rather than province wide bargaining.  But it was NDP premier Clark on the advice of Dix who made that change.  In doing so the NDP also had to legislate the teachers back to work.  The BCTF have been almost impossible to deal with since about 1972.

I see.

The NDP will win because of the blowback from the HST.  The Libs are currently at 20% in the polls but more importantly the provincial conservative party is gaining support.  Whenever there is a split in the centre right vote the NDP win.  The the coalition reforms to kick the socialists out.  We are just at that phase of the cycle.  Again barring a miracle.

That kind of sucks (because I was in favour of the HST). The whole HST debacle is pretty annoying actually... I managed to build my house just late enough that the HST applied, but not late enough that it got repealed.

[crazy canuck]

Is it fair to say that you dislike and distrust Dix?

He seems likeable enough - he is after all a charsimatic politician.  That is what makes him dangerous.  I do not trust him at all.

Really? That's sort of weird, because in some other places secret ballots for certification/ desertification is considered a pro-union thing, something that protects the workers from repercussions from the employer. But here in BC, secret ballots are considered anti-union because it prevents the union from hectoring wavering supporters? Weird. Personally, I think secret ballots for union certification is a good thing.

I am not familiar with a place where secret ballots are not disliked by unions.  Usually unions want to make sure that all the workers support them on their certification vote.  That is why I suspect it will change.  Where are secret ballots considered union friendly?

It may be that you are unfamiliar with how things worked here under the NDP before the secret ballot. The union essentially oversaw the process in which workers were polled giving the union a fair degree of control.  So you can see why they would want a return to those days.

That kind of sucks (because I was in favour of the HST). The whole HST debacle is pretty annoying actually... I managed to build my house just late enough that the HST applied, but not late enough that it got repealed.

I agree.  The province engaged in mass stupidity.  But it gives you a good insight into why I dont trust Dix.  The main outcry to the tax first came from the right of the Liberal party.  Dix saw a poltical opportunity and rather than keeping a tax which would have supported much of what he said he wanted to do in terms of spending priorities he jumped on the bandwagon because he saw it as his route to winning the next election.  He was right about that but it was very much an ends justifies the means approach.  Once the left combined with the far right the tax was doomed.

If you saw the odd spectacle of former Socred Premier Vanderzalm basically standing arm in arm with Dix on this one you get a sense of my unease with the man.

[Jacob]

He seems likeable enough - he is after all a charsimatic politician.  That is what makes him dangerous.  I do not trust him at all.

I'm a sucker for charisma.

I am not familiar with a place where secret ballots are not disliked by unions.  Usually unions want to make sure that all the workers support them on their certification vote.  That is why I suspect it will change.  Where are secret ballots considered union friendly?

I'm pretty sure that I've heard people like Admiral Yi condemn secret union ballots as being antithetical to all that is good and decent, though I believe that's in the context of "right to work" states and the general climate for organized labour in the US.

It may be that you are unfamiliar with how things worked here under the NDP before the secret ballot. The union essentially oversaw the process in which workers were polled giving the union a fair degree of control.  So you can see why they would want a return to those days.

Yes I am unfamiliar with that process. My one union vote was secret ballot, which seemed eminently fair to me.

I agree.  The province engaged in mass stupidity.  But it gives you a good insight into why I dont trust Dix.  The main outcry to the tax first came from the right of the Liberal party.  Dix saw a poltical opportunity and rather than keeping a tax which would have supported much of what he said he wanted to do in terms of spending priorities he jumped on the bandwagon because he saw it as his route to winning the next election.  He was right about that but it was very much an ends justifies the means approach.  Once the left combined with the far right the tax was doomed.

If you saw the odd spectacle of former Socred Premier Vanderzalm basically standing arm in arm with Dix on this one you get a sense of my unease with the man.

I do remember some leftie working with Vanderzalm against the HST, and I wasn't impressed. Didn't realize it was Dix, however.

[Neil]

I'm pretty sure that I've heard people like Admiral Yi condemn secret union ballots as being antithetical to all that is good and decent, though I believe that's in the context of "right to work" states and the general climate for organized labour in the US.

Is it possible that he was just talking about unions in general?

[Oexmelin]

I'm pretty sure that I've heard people like Admiral Yi condemn secret union ballots as being antithetical to all that is good and decent, though I believe that's in the context of "right to work" states and the general climate for organized labour in the US.

Yi believes unions are antithetical to all that is good and decent, whether they propose secret ballot or not...

That being said, usually unions maintains - rightly, IMO - that there are significant qualitative difference between joining - or leaving - a union and routinely validating policies. Just like voting in a general election and joining a party are qualitatively different things. Should we submit the creation of political parties to general elections? We have equated democracy with voting, because the social contract is a fiction, impractical to enact - but I would argue that "belonging" to a society requires more than simply turning up at the booth.

Does that make the process of union accreditation exempt from problems? Of course not. But there is a positive element to vocally manifesting your approval to something - especially when it is contentious - rather than letting the undercurrent of fear, that so many employers are happy to diffuse, to be individually felt. 

[Neil]

The problem is that unions are generally thugs, and will happily assault anyone who goes against their program.  That's why secret ballot in accreditation is so important.

[crazy canuck]

Does that make the process of union accreditation exempt from problems? Of course not. But there is a positive element to vocally manifesting your approval to something - especially when it is contentious - rather than letting the undercurrent of fear, that so many employers are happy to diffuse, to be individually felt.

Bullshit.  There are strong laws against an employer doing anything to dissuade an employee from joining a union.  If the labour board finds an employer is guilty of an unfair labour practice - such as this - then certification is automatic.

So much for manifesting an approval and so much for your argument that there is some justification to allow unions to intimidate employees into joining.

edit: you forget, I see what actually happens when a union tries to certify and I saw what happened when employees didnt get a secret ballet.  Further employees and manifest their approval all they want during meetings with the union.  It is the balloting itself that is secret.

[Oexmelin]

Bullshit.  There are strong laws against an employer doing anything to dissuade an employee from joining a union.  If the labour board finds an employer is guilty of an unfair labour practice - such as this - then certification is automatic.

And I could reply "Bullshit. There are strong laws against union members doing anything to pressure employees into joining a union. If the labour board finds that accreditation cards have been been tampered with, then a secret vote is automatic". Which is how it is supposed to be done in Quebec.

[Oexmelin]

I saw what happened when employees didnt get a secret ballet.

They rioted?

[Admiral Yi]

Is it possible that he was just talking about unions in general?

I was talking about a proposal floated during the 08 presidential campaign for federal legislation that would forbid secret ballots for certification.