The Great Union-Busting Thread

[derspiess]

If the legislature had only required that they themselves follow the rules they set for others, they could have done more good.  They should have made it so that elected officials could not collect taxes for their own pay from the taxpayers' wages (require such taxes to be paid voluntarily), and require that voters approve the continued tenure of each state-level elected official every year.  What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, no?

Hmm-- could we then also vote for who gets teaching positions?

[derspiess]

Death threats.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20041660-503544.html

"This is how it's going to happen: I as well as many others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records. We have all planned to assult (sic) you by arriving at your house and putting a nice little bullet in your head. However, this isn't enough. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the message. So we have built several bombs that we have placed in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent..."

Glad the left is keeping things civil LOLZ

[Strix]

If the legislature had only required that they themselves follow the rules they set for others, they could have done more good.  They should have made it so that elected officials could not collect taxes for their own pay from the taxpayers' wages (require such taxes to be paid voluntarily), and require that voters approve the continued tenure of each state-level elected official every year.  What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, no?

Hmm-- could we then also vote for who gets teaching positions?

Why not let the kids vote? I am sure they'd be just as impartial and objective as the parents and school administrators. Honestly, it would be best to let the Legislators decide the issue. Just imagine all the bribes and graft they could get as each individual teacher and school has to lobby for their careers than do it again the next year. It will certainly inspire the next generation of teachers to go get their Bachelor's degree and than their Masters knowing they'll have no job security but a huge college loan debt over their heads.

[Berkut]

Oh man, teachers with student loans and no guaranteed job???

Oh, the huge manatees!

[garbon]

Oh man, teachers with student loans and no guaranteed job???

Oh, the huge manatees!

Of course, we have to reassess if we want people to be teachers. Long vacations are great, but if you are shelling out lots of money for an advanced degree and then likely end up with no job, not really sure the allure of long vacations will draw anyone sensible.

[crazy canuck]

Death threats.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20041660-503544.html

"This is how it's going to happen: I as well as many others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records. We have all planned to assult (sic) you by arriving at your house and putting a nice little bullet in your head. However, this isn't enough. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the message. So we have built several bombs that we have placed in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent..."

Good old Socialists.

Wait a minute.  I thought only Muslims were terrorists in the US.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-muslims-hearing-20110311,0,7503436.story

[Berkut]

Oh man, teachers with student loans and no guaranteed job???

Oh, the huge manatees!

Of course, we have to reassess if we want people to be teachers. Long vacations are great, but if you are shelling out lots of money for an advanced degree and then likely end up with no job, not really sure the allure of long vacations will draw anyone sensible.

The funny thing is that its not like unions guarantee that college grads will get jobs - they certainly do not CREATE jobs. The only thing they can do is promise that once you get a job, you won't have to actually perform in order to make above the market rate in salary - often well above it.

I have no problem paying teachers (or police officers, fireman, parole officers, whatever) well. But "well" should be determined by the market, not by what the unions can manage to trade/blackmail for. The state of New York should pay what it takes to attract the best teachers we can afford.

Comments like Strix's just really illustrate how disconnected with reality those sucking at the public tit become. They actually say things like that as if non-union people might think "Holy shit, we cannot possibly have teachers with student loans and no guaranteed job! Why, that would be just like everyone fucking else!"

Excuse me while I go right out my monthly student loan payment check. Paid for by my salary from my non-guaranteed job. How can I possibly survive like this?

[Camerus]

Sounds like a delightful state to work in.

Also, apart from the ridculous policy of selectively removing certain unions' right to bargain collectively, making salary increases beyond the rate of inflation a matter of referendum is likewise insane.

[Strix]

Oh man, teachers with student loans and no guaranteed job???

Oh, the huge manatees!

Nice strawman. Who said anything about guaranteed jobs? The only people with guaranteed jobs are political appointees. The rest have to qualify with the required amount of education, experience, and natural attributes. This is usually followed by a Civil Service test. Than an interview process. And once you have gotten through all those phases than you get hired. This is followed by a year or so of probation when you can be terminated at any time.

Not sure how that process = guaranteed. But you know best.

[garbon]

The funny thing is that its not like unions guarantee that college grads will get jobs - they certainly do not CREATE jobs. The only thing they can do is promise that once you get a job, you won't have to actually perform in order to make above the market rate in salary - often well above it.

I have no problem paying teachers (or police officers, fireman, parole officers, whatever) well. But "well" should be determined by the market, not by what the unions can manage to trade/blackmail for. The state of New York should pay what it takes to attract the best teachers we can afford.

Comments like Strix's just really illustrate how disconnected with reality those sucking at the public tit become. They actually say things like that as if non-union people might think "Holy shit, we cannot possibly have teachers with student loans and no guaranteed job! Why, that would be just like everyone fucking else!"

Excuse me while I go right out my monthly student loan payment check. Paid for by my salary from my non-guaranteed job. How can I possibly survive like this?

Teaching has never really struck me as a job that one goes into for great pay. Love of the field seems more important and perhaps for some the vacation (although seems like a lesser bonus). However, it seems like a foolish decision to enter a low-paying position that often gets the axe when it comes to righting state budgets - one wouldn't even beg getting to do one's passion! *

*Although perhaps the news media just over-represents teacher layoffs.

[derspiess]

Oh man, teachers with student loans and no guaranteed job???

Oh, the huge manatees!

Nice strawman. Who said anything about guaranteed jobs? The only people with guaranteed jobs are political appointees. The rest have to qualify with the required amount of education, experience, and natural attributes. This is usually followed by a Civil Service test. Than an interview process. And once you have gotten through all those phases than you get hired. This is followed by a year or so of probation when you can be terminated at any time.

Not sure how that process = guaranteed. But you know best.

Wow, so you have to endure an ENTIRE YEAR of at-will employment? 

[Strix]

The funny thing is that its not like unions guarantee that college grads will get jobs - they certainly do not CREATE jobs. The only thing they can do is promise that once you get a job, you won't have to actually perform in order to make above the market rate in salary - often well above it.

I have no problem paying teachers (or police officers, fireman, parole officers, whatever) well. But "well" should be determined by the market, not by what the unions can manage to trade/blackmail for. The state of New York should pay what it takes to attract the best teachers we can afford.

Comments like Strix's just really illustrate how disconnected with reality those sucking at the public tit become. They actually say things like that as if non-union people might think "Holy shit, we cannot possibly have teachers with student loans and no guaranteed job! Why, that would be just like everyone fucking else!"

Excuse me while I go right out my monthly student loan payment check. Paid for by my salary from my non-guaranteed job. How can I possibly survive like this?

I like the way you knocked that Strawman over. You are the master. The way the arms, legs, and head popped off was amazing!

[DGuller]

Oh man, teachers with student loans and no guaranteed job???

Oh, the huge manatees!

Nice strawman. Who said anything about guaranteed jobs? The only people with guaranteed jobs are political appointees. The rest have to qualify with the required amount of education, experience, and natural attributes. This is usually followed by a Civil Service test. Than an interview process. And once you have gotten through all those phases than you get hired. This is followed by a year or so of probation when you can be terminated at any time.

Not sure how that process = guaranteed. But you know best.

Excessive barriers to entry are one of the signs that the position is overpaid.  There are a variety of ways to deal with a glut of truly qualified applicants when you pay too much:  make the requirements unnecessarily stringent, have people wait in lines for years for a chance at a job, or have some unofficial connections/bribe requirements.

[Strix]

Wow, so you have to endure an ENTIRE YEAR of at-will employment? 

After four years of college and three years of previous job experience. Yes, it is followed by a year of at-will employment. After that, there are standards that must be met each month or you get in trouble. Once you have gotten in trouble three times within 3 years than termination unless of course you are female or non-white but that is another issue that has nothing to do with being Union or non-Union.

What are the qualifications for your job?

[Strix]

Excessive barriers to entry are one of the signs that the position is overpaid.  There are a variety of ways to deal with a glut of truly qualified applicants when you pay too much:  make the requirements unnecessarily stringent, have people wait in lines for years for a chance at a job, or have some unofficial connections/bribe requirements.

As opposed to creating a pool of unqualified job applicants? That makes perfect sense. Perhaps the local McDonald's in your area can work out a transfer policy to the local school system. People can go from being the 'fry guy' to a Principal in six months.