The Great Union-Busting Thread

[Slargos]

The concept of unions isn't hard to defend. The practices of some unions are.

Spitting on a hundred years of Worker driven progress in the area of basic liberties is pretty stupid even for Languish.

If you don't know where you've been, how the fuck can you know where you're going? Simpletons.

I think Americans have a different experience of unions than Sweden or even the UK because I find the level of dislike just utterly incomprehensible.  It's like gun laws it's something I read the opinions of people and just can't understand it, I never encounter it.  I think there's one of those cultural gaps.

Maybe. I'm going to go out on a limb though and guess that unions did pretty much the same very important work in the US during their conceptualization that they did in Europe. They may certainly have developed differently over time in the US than in Europe. Frankly, modern unions certainly don't have the same raison d'etre that they used to, and some of them are clearly just working to perpetuate their own existence rather than for the rights of their members.

The umbrella Labour union in Sweden is a very good example.

[Strix]

Possibly.  Can you humor me, though, and restate the point you tried to make with McDonalds workers in a way that's conveying some thought?

I can try but not much to work with in you.

You stated your drivel about excessive barriers. That means you believe that there should be fewer requirements for a position. Apparently meeting requirements does not equal greater potential ability at doing a job to you. I picked a job that doesn't require a lot of qualifications to work e.g. McDonald's. Creating a real life example of removing most job qualifications would mean that someone could easily transfer from the 'fry guy' at McDonald's to being a Principal at a local school.

In your world anyways.

[CountDeMoney]

I think Americans have a different experience of unions than Sweden or even the UK because I find the level of dislike just utterly incomprehensible.  It's like gun laws it's something I read the opinions of people and just can't understand it, I never encounter it.  I think there's one of those cultural gaps.

You have to remember, the rise of unions came at a time of a comparable rise in socialist/communist/anarchist activity, and there was, for a lot of reasons, a lot of overlap of personalities.  The concept of unions is antithetical to the Calvinist work ethic that has driven this country since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

In addition, you're dealing with a lot of Languishites that came of age during the Reagan Revolution, so it's been imprinted on their tiny little minds all their lives that unions = commies. They're simply part of the usual right-hate hat trick: fags, niggers and unions.  They're destroying America from within.  Only Wall Street can save us now.

[Slargos]

The concept of unions isn't hard to defend.

That's debatable.  In isolation, I think it is a very hard concept to defend, because effective unions are cartels in nature, and have to employ coercion to function.  It gets complicated when you consider the historical context, when unions first arose in response to some pretty reprehensible practices of the employers.

Like I said, when one discusses the concept of unions one can't only look at extreme examples of modern union corruption, but at the entire concept of what a union SHOULD be doing and what they have historically done. That some (I refuse to believe that it's all of them, but since I don't know enough I certainly won't stand my ground on the issue if pressed) apples are bad doesn't necessarily mean the whole batch is.

[derspiess]

Wow, so you have to endure an ENTIRE YEAR of at-will employment? 

After four years of college and three years of previous job experience. Yes, it is followed by a year of at-will employment. After that, there are standards that must be met each month or you get in trouble. Once you have gotten in trouble three times within 3 years than termination unless of course you are female or non-white but that is another issue that has nothing to do with being Union or non-Union.

What are the qualifications for your job?

Four year degree minimum, MBA preferred.  Not sure what work experience is required on paper, but you really need 6-8 years in payment industry experience to hit the ground running.

At-will employment, of course.

[Slargos]

I think Americans have a different experience of unions than Sweden or even the UK because I find the level of dislike just utterly incomprehensible.  It's like gun laws it's something I read the opinions of people and just can't understand it, I never encounter it.  I think there's one of those cultural gaps.

You have to remember, the rise of unions came at a time of a comparable rise in socialist/communist/anarchist activity, and there was, for a lot of reasons, a lot of overlap of personalities.  The concept of unions is antithetical to the Calvinist work ethic that has driven this country since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

In addition, you're dealing with a lot of Languishites that came of age during the Reagan Revolution, so it's been imprinted on their tiny little minds all their lives that unions = commies. They're simply part of the usual right-hate hat trick: fags, niggers and unions.  They're destroying America from within.  Only Wall Street can save us now.

A reasonable explanation for an unreasonable phenomenon. Interesting. 

[Caliga]

In addition, you're dealing with a lot of Languishites that came of age during the Reagan Revolution, so it's been imprinted on their tiny little minds all their lives that unions = commies. They're simply part of the usual right-hate hat trick: fags, niggers and unions.  They're destroying America from within.  Only Wall Street can save us now.

First off, I'm actually not a fan of Reagan.  To me, Reagan and Obama are similar in many ways and I like neither.

Secondly, my dislike of unions stems from quite a bit of personal experience.  I've been in a union twice (both times forced to enroll due to stupid closed shop rules), and had to deal with union organizing actions once.  When I was in a union I was forced to pay dues in exchange for absolutely nothing other than promises of 'protection' (sounds a lot like racketeering, actually), and when I was on the management side of the fence we had to deal with union infiltration of our hourly staff complete with lies, propaganda, and unfair lobbying... by which I mean unions have the right to do a lot of things to press their cause that employers actually lack.

I don't think unions should be made illegal, but I would love it if the NLRA was ever repealed.  Unions don't need unfair advantages enforced by federal law when it comes to organizing battles.

[derspiess]

In addition, you're dealing with a lot of Languishites that came of age during the Reagan Revolution,

 

I was only 7 when he was elected but I am & will always be a: Reagan Republican.

[DGuller]

Possibly.  Can you humor me, though, and restate the point you tried to make with McDonalds workers in a way that's conveying some thought?

I can try but not much to work with in you.

You stated your drivel about excessive barriers. That means you believe that there should be fewer requirements for a position. Apparently meeting requirements does not equal greater potential ability at doing a job to you. I picked a job that doesn't require a lot of qualifications to work e.g. McDonald's. Creating a real life example of removing most job qualifications would mean that someone could easily transfer from the 'fry guy' at McDonald's to being a Principal at a local school.

In your world anyways.

Ok, I didn't miss anything the first time.  There is not much thought to be had in your argument.

Just because requirements can be excessive for certain positions doesn't mean that the only other alternative is to have no job requirements.  It also doesn't mean that requirements would be the same for jobs with wildly different responsibilities and expectations.

I do commend you on forming a well-hidden strawman.  The logic of your argument is so tortured to death that's it's very hard to recognize straw (or anything else) in it.

[Caliga]

Maybe. I'm going to go out on a limb though and guess that unions did pretty much the same very important work in the US during their conceptualization that they did in Europe. They may certainly have developed differently over time in the US than in Europe. Frankly, modern unions certainly don't have the same raison d'etre that they used to, and some of them are clearly just working to perpetuate their own existence rather than for the rights of their members.

I would also agree that in America's past, unions played a vital and commendable role in advancing workers' rights and by extension democracy.

[Barrister]

In addition, you're dealing with a lot of Languishites that came of age during the Reagan Revolution,

 

I was only 7 when he was elected but I am & will always be a: Reagan Republican.

And I will always be a (Manning) Reformer.

The West Wants In!

[CountDeMoney]

You guys can bitch and moan all you want about how useless unions are all you want...after all, if they're gone, we all know we can trust Big Bidness, Wall Street and the Republicans to always do the right thing when it comes to workers, right?

Unions are the last bulwark against exploitation in our capitalist society.  It sure as shit ain't the courts, it sure as shit ain't the government, and it sure as shit ain't shareholder-driven employers.

You guys kills me.  The totality of every fucking union in this country doesn't even touch the damage Wall Street does to our society.  But that's OK, you keep backing the wealthy, the Republicans and the 1% Masters of The Universe that would fucking hate you if they knew you.  Suckers.

[DGuller]

The concept of unions isn't hard to defend.

That's debatable.  In isolation, I think it is a very hard concept to defend, because effective unions are cartels in nature, and have to employ coercion to function.  It gets complicated when you consider the historical context, when unions first arose in response to some pretty reprehensible practices of the employers.

Like I said, when one discusses the concept of unions one can't only look at extreme examples of modern union corruption, but at the entire concept of what a union SHOULD be doing and what they have historically done. That some (I refuse to believe that it's all of them, but since I don't know enough I certainly won't stand my ground on the issue if pressed) apples are bad doesn't necessarily mean the whole batch is.

Nothing I said applied exclusively to the modern unions.  Any kind of labor union is a cartel in nature. 

The whole point of a labor union is to organize the workers so that they individually wouldn't compete with each other on salary or perks.  That's labor cartel.  Another necessity of such an arrangement is that you also need to intimidate potential scabs to not compete with your union, or your whole union can just be fired and replaced with non-unionized force.  There are numerous ways to accomplish this; social pressure, laws, or violence.  Whatever the way, it's coercive, and ultimatley an attack on individual freedom.

[Barrister]

In addition, you're dealing with a lot of Languishites that came of age during the Reagan Revolution, so it's been imprinted on their tiny little minds all their lives that unions = commies. They're simply part of the usual right-hate hat trick: fags, niggers and unions.  They're destroying America from within.  Only Wall Street can save us now.

First off, I'm actually not a fan of Reagan.  To me, Reagan and Obama are similar in many ways and I like neither.

Secondly, my dislike of unions stems from quite a bit of personal experience.  I've been in a union twice (both times forced to enroll due to stupid closed shop rules), and had to deal with union organizing actions once.  When I was in a union I was forced to pay dues in exchange for absolutely nothing other than promises of 'protection' (sounds a lot like racketeering, actually), and when I was on the management side of the fence we had to deal with union infiltration of our hourly staff complete with lies, propaganda, and unfair lobbying... by which I mean unions have the right to do a lot of things to press their cause that employers actually lack.

I don't think unions should be made illegal, but I would love it if the NLRA was ever repealed.  Unions don't need unfair advantages enforced by federal law when it comes to organizing battles.

My issues with unions are largely philosophical, but I have personal experience as well.

My wife did get involved in the local at her job, and was promptly asked to be union President.  So I got to see a bit of that side.  And she did some good - bringing up workplace safety concerns with management all the time.  She'd also tell employees that the union would not help when it was their own fault.

However on the negative side...  About a dozen years ago my father crossed a picket line.  He was out of work at the time, he was good friends with the manager, so he took the job.  (Incedentally this was one of the few / only times I've ever seen a union completely, 100% busted.  I don't know exactly how, but when the final agreement was signed the union was no more, and several people were not welcome back at their jobs).

But unions have continued to hound him ever since.  He was offered a job at a place - the union said they would refuse to give him a union card, therefore the company could not hire him.  WTF! Since when do unions get to veto employees?  And they have continued to give him problems getting employment ever since.  All for him helping a friend and trying to put food on his table.



So - unions at their best can have a small positive.  At their worst they are nothing but thugs and bullies.

[DGuller]

I don't think unions should be made illegal, but I would love it if the NLRA was ever repealed.  Unions don't need unfair advantages enforced by federal law when it comes to organizing battles.

Actually, they do.  Unions cannot survive if they're not in some way protected form being fired wholesale and replaced with non-union workers.