Libyan Civil War Megathread

[alfred russel]

They might - but since I am not the one who has to make a decision and my opinion is not limited to only judging my own appreciation and the appreciation of random poll takers (I wonder what a poll of rebels fighting in Libya would say about their appreciation for Western help?), then it hardly seems relevant. Once can, for example, get all kinds of informed and considered viewpoints about the ME without resorting to dubious opinion polls designed to prove how much everyone hates the nasty Americans.

There are profoundly negative attitudes to the US's role in the  Arabic world from all levels in their society. Do you disagree with this? Do you have any reason to dispute the outcomes of the polling I cited?

[The Brain]

They might - but since I am not the one who has to make a decision and my opinion is not limited to only judging my own appreciation and the appreciation of random poll takers (I wonder what a poll of rebels fighting in Libya would say about their appreciation for Western help?), then it hardly seems relevant. Once can, for example, get all kinds of informed and considered viewpoints about the ME without resorting to dubious opinion polls designed to prove how much everyone hates the nasty Americans.

There are profoundly negative attitudes to the US's role in the  Arabic world from all levels in their society. Do you disagree with this? Do you have any reason to dispute the outcomes of the polling I cited?

If you invade it will be like France 1944. Do you disagree with this?

[alfred russel]

If you invade it will be like France 1944. Do you disagree with this?

Yes. We had a compelling strategic national interest to invade France in 1944.

[Berkut]

They might - but since I am not the one who has to make a decision and my opinion is not limited to only judging my own appreciation and the appreciation of random poll takers (I wonder what a poll of rebels fighting in Libya would say about their appreciation for Western help?), then it hardly seems relevant. Once can, for example, get all kinds of informed and considered viewpoints about the ME without resorting to dubious opinion polls designed to prove how much everyone hates the nasty Americans.

There are profoundly negative attitudes to the US's role in the  Arabic world from all levels in their society.

Lets see....lets try this:

"There are profoundly negative attitudes to the US's role in the Western world from all levels of Western society. "
"There are profoundly negative attitudes to the US's role in the Indian sub-continent from all levels of Indian society. "
"There are profoundly negative attitudes to the US's role in Europe from all levels of European society. "

Do you disagree with any of these statements?

Do you disagree with this? Do you have any reason to dispute the outcomes of the polling I cited?

I have reason to not give it much weight, yes. More to the point, my views on what the US should or should not do in regards to foreign policy have very little to do with what random uneducated people think about the US and our evil ways. *Especially* societies as screwed up as the Middle East.

You don't get to cite polls of the general population as evidence for how much we are hated, then turn around and claim they represent some smaller, more informed portion as well, btw. Even if we assume the poll is not complete BS, why would you assume the results from the general population would be reflected in some very small subset of that population?

More to the point...why would you give so much weight to popularity polls to begin with, as opposed to all the other data and viewpoints out there? Seriously, the viewpoints of the masses when it comes to crap like "Lets talk about how terrible the US is and how they are the Great Satan..." should not even carry any weight with you, much less me.

[derspiess]

I think there are situations where it's pointless to try & help out a bunch of ingrates.  This seems to be one of them. 

[alfred russel]

Do you disagree with any of these statements?

Yes, all three. There are subsets of Indian and European society that are pro US. The majority of Europeans overall, I think.

I have reason to not give it much weight, yes. More to the point, my views on what the US should or should not do in regards to foreign policy have very little to do with what random uneducated people think about the US and our evil ways. *Especially* societies as screwed up as the Middle East.

You don't get to cite polls of the general population as evidence for how much we are hated, then turn around and claim they represent some smaller, more informed portion as well, btw. Even if we assume the poll is not complete BS, why would you assume the results from the general population would be reflected in some very small subset of that population?

The approval rating for the US in the poll is 5%, less than the 8% when Bush left office. You can delude yourself into pretending that the educated portion of society may be with us, but only the uneducated masses fail to see the wisdom of our policies. At a certain point the numbers become so bad I feel comfortable to assume that they reflect a general trend in arabic society.

Part of the reason that I find your reasoning to be denial of the worst order is I've worked with Egyptians overseas--who have the common characteristic of being educated, fluent in english, and working for an american company. If there is a demographic that is pro US in Egypt it is likely them, and to a person (to the extent we've discussed politics, which I try to avoid) they are generally opposed to the US in the region. The polling is overwhelmingly in one direction (not just this poll, but polls in general), and it matches at least my experience (I'd be interested if anyone has a different experience).

[alfred russel]

More to the point...why would you give so much weight to popularity polls to begin with, as opposed to all the other data and viewpoints out there? Seriously, the viewpoints of the masses when it comes to crap like "Lets talk about how terrible the US is and how they are the Great Satan..." should not even carry any weight with you, much less me.

Because this is ostensibly a humanitarian mission. We don't have real strategic interests in Libya. If the arabic world doesn't think we help matters there and is opposed to us being there, maybe we just shouldn't be there. Bombing campaigns in arabic countries with humanitarian motives when the arabic world thinks we are making the region more unstable and wants us to leave seems foolish.

If we had strategic interests, it would be different. If Iranian tanks start rolling into Saudi Arabia, my point of view is we need to be involved, regardless of opinion.

[Berkut]

And again, that polling is one variable, and a pretty unimportant one. There is no denial - it simply does not matter to me. The fact that Middle Eastern society has fucked up nutbar views of America has very little weight on my evaluation of US foreign policy goals.

[Berkut]

More to the point...why would you give so much weight to popularity polls to begin with, as opposed to all the other data and viewpoints out there? Seriously, the viewpoints of the masses when it comes to crap like "Lets talk about how terrible the US is and how they are the Great Satan..." should not even carry any weight with you, much less me.

Because this is ostensibly a humanitarian mission.

So perhaps we should give more weight to the opinions of those we are trying to help than those who wish us ill. Just a thought.

[Berkut]

Do you disagree with any of these statements?

Yes, all three. There are subsets of Indian and European society that are pro US. The majority of Europeans overall, I think.

That isn't what my statements said - it said there were elements at all levels, which is most certainly true.

[Valmy]

The fact that Middle Eastern society has fucked up nutbar views of America has very little weight on my evaluation of US foreign policy goals.

Considering we are supposedly there to stop anti-American violence that does seem to be a strange view.

But maybe there are some other goals you are referring to.

[alfred russel]

Do you disagree with any of these statements?

Yes, all three. There are subsets of Indian and European society that are pro US. The majority of Europeans overall, I think.

That isn't what my statements said - it said there were elements at all levels, which is most certainly true.

If it was meant to mimic my statement, my statement was referring to majority sentiment--not a couple of guys. Ie, a majority of the rich, the poor, the elderly, the young, single, married, etc.

There are handfuls of people that believe anything.

[derspiess]

So perhaps we should give more weight to the opinions of those we are trying to help than those who wish us ill. Just a thought.

So how much weight do we give to our own opinions?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/july_2011/support_for_military_action_in_libya_is_down_to_24

[Berkut]

The fact that Middle Eastern society has fucked up nutbar views of America has very little weight on my evaluation of US foreign policy goals.

Considering we are supposedly there to stop anti-American violence that does seem to be a strange view.

But maybe there are some other goals you are referring to.

If I thought running away would somehow make the nutbar conspiracy theory whackos decide to ignore the US since we would presumably no longer be such a barrier to peace, justice, equality, and prosperity, I might actually consider their views.

But it would not make a single bit of difference in how they view the US. It's not like the view that the US and our supposed  "interference" is the primary source of the Middle Easts problems is founded on anything rational or reasoned anyway.Well, except perhaps insofar as we have interfered with their desire to genocide the Jews, and I am ok with being responsible for that part.

Also, I don't much care for the idea of validating their crazy by giving in to their idiotic demands, when the truth of the matter is that the US does NOT interfere in the Middle East in general, and certainly not enough to bear any great responsibility for their screwed up societies.

Lastly, if in fact this was the opinion of the people we are actually trying to help, it would carry a lot more weight. Random arabs saying "fuck the Libyans, we don't care about them..." doesn't mean much to me. And I bet most if you couched the question in those terms ("Do you think the West should support the rebels against Qadafi") would be a lot more positive anyway.

[Berkut]

So perhaps we should give more weight to the opinions of those we are trying to help than those who wish us ill. Just a thought.

So how much weight do we give to our own opinions?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/july_2011/support_for_military_action_in_libya_is_down_to_24

Quite a lot, of course.

Errh, depending on what you mean. That doesn't mean anything to my own opinion about why we should support the rebels, I do think it means a lot (and should mean a lot) to those who actually make the decisions.