Libyan Civil War Megathread

[Grey Fox]

Fuck you, it's the same thing!

No Blood for Free Trade!

[Berkut]

I would say the country the US has the most contact and constant intervention with is probably Canada and the rest of Europe. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan even all have more US contact and ongoing interaction than the Middle East.

Yeah, the types of intervention in Canada is exactly what I was referring to.  NAFTA != dropping bombs on people to change their government.

<whoosh>

[alfred russel]

A recent poll in Arabic countries finds that they hate our policies and think we are the biggest source of instability in the region. We are less popular than when Bush left office.

http://www.aaiusa.org/reports/arab-attitutes-2011

The poll didn't include Libya, probably because there is a war going on there.

Berkut should note that even in Egypt that had a relatively peaceful revolution, most people are not taking the view it has made the country better off--a plurality are believe that only time will tell. Getting rid of a dictator does not necessarily improve things, and even in Egypt, that on a per capita basis is a fraction as wealthy as Libya and didn't go through a civil war, they aren't overwhelmed with optimism.

[Berkut]

You mean after something like a revolution, "only time will tell" if everyone is going to turn out swell?

Crap, I had no idea! I thought it was guaranteed roses and sunshine! I am so disillusioned!

[alfred russel]

You mean after something like a revolution, "only time will tell" if everyone is going to turn out swell?

Crap, I had no idea! I thought it was guaranteed roses and sunshine! I am so disillusioned!

Maybe we should bomb Cairo. Adding American bombs to Libya seemed to work so well, that may be the missing ingredient to getting their revolution to work.

Did you read the poll? Really almost every response is a great reason to militarily disengage in the region, but to highlight one:

"On a scale from 1 to 5, with 1 being very much and 5 being not at all, how much of an obstacle are each of the following to peace and stability in the Middle East:"

In 3 of the 6 countries, "U.S. interference in the Arab world" had the highest percentage of "very much" responses. In 2 others, it was #2, behind "Continuing
occupation of Palestinian lands" (though in Jordan it still got 80% of "very much" responses). Saudi Arabia was the remaining country, where the US response only got a 59% "very much" response (they are most worried about Iran).

"Lack of democracy" was also an option. It was in 3 or worse in every country except for Lebanon (where it was 2nd behind the US option).

[Berkut]

You mean after something like a revolution, "only time will tell" if everyone is going to turn out swell?

Crap, I had no idea! I thought it was guaranteed roses and sunshine! I am so disillusioned!

Maybe we should bomb Cairo. Adding American bombs to Libya seemed to work so well, that may be the missing ingredient to getting their revolution to work.

The revolt in Lbya does seem to be working though. I don't think we should take much credit for it though.

Did you read the poll? Really almost every response is a great reason to militarily disengage in the region, but to highlight one:

No, the fact that a lot of uneducated people believe things that are not true is a rather poor reason to disengage, actually.

There are good reasons - Joe Arab and his conspiracy theories are not one of them though. Since when does US foreign policy base itself on polls of people of other countries, especially ones as well known to be undereducated and generally nutty as the Middle East?

[Neil]

And the Cons don't hate the US because?

Common goals.

Which if the Tea baggers are any indication, the total destruction of Western Civilization.

All Tea Party lunatics are Americans, but not all Americans are Tea Party lunatics.  Logic 101.

[Grey Fox]

And the Cons don't hate the US because?

Common goals.

Which if the Tea baggers are any indication, the total destruction of Western Civilization.

All Tea Party lunatics are Americans, but not all Americans are Tea Party lunatics.  Logic 101.

Same logics apply to the NDP voters. I voted NDP. I love America.

[Valmy]

Same logics apply to the NDP voters. I voted NDP. I love America.

I love Quebec to man

And who wouldn't love those sexy Quebec ladies?

[Razgovory]

Is this still going on?

[alfred russel]

You mean after something like a revolution, "only time will tell" if everyone is going to turn out swell?

Crap, I had no idea! I thought it was guaranteed roses and sunshine! I am so disillusioned!

Maybe we should bomb Cairo. Adding American bombs to Libya seemed to work so well, that may be the missing ingredient to getting their revolution to work.

The revolt in Lbya does seem to be working though. I don't think we should take much credit for it though.

Did you read the poll? Really almost every response is a great reason to militarily disengage in the region, but to highlight one:

No, the fact that a lot of uneducated people believe things that are not true is a rather poor reason to disengage, actually.

There are good reasons - Joe Arab and his conspiracy theories are not one of them though. Since when does US foreign policy base itself on polls of people of other countries, especially ones as well known to be undereducated and generally nutty as the Middle East?

We have limited interests in parts of the region and the people overwhelmingly see our impact negatively and want us to leave. There are educated and non crazy people in the region too, and I would think that the overwhelming nature of the negative opinion of the US would cause you to consider they don't appreciate us there either. Plus they might have a better appreciation of the situation in the middle east than you do.

[derspiess]

Is this still going on?

Yes, apparently the rebels are clinging on to Misrata and making "good progress" towards Tripoli.  Gadaffi is expected to fold at any moment.

You know, just like it was back in February.

[Berkut]

You mean after something like a revolution, "only time will tell" if everyone is going to turn out swell?

Crap, I had no idea! I thought it was guaranteed roses and sunshine! I am so disillusioned!

Maybe we should bomb Cairo. Adding American bombs to Libya seemed to work so well, that may be the missing ingredient to getting their revolution to work.

The revolt in Lbya does seem to be working though. I don't think we should take much credit for it though.

Did you read the poll? Really almost every response is a great reason to militarily disengage in the region, but to highlight one:

No, the fact that a lot of uneducated people believe things that are not true is a rather poor reason to disengage, actually.

There are good reasons - Joe Arab and his conspiracy theories are not one of them though. Since when does US foreign policy base itself on polls of people of other countries, especially ones as well known to be undereducated and generally nutty as the Middle East?

We have limited interests in parts of the region and the people overwhelmingly see our impact negatively and want us to leave. There are educated and non crazy people in the region too, and I would think that the overwhelming nature of the negative opinion of the US would cause you to consider they don't appreciate us there either. Plus they might have a better appreciation of the situation in the middle east than you do.

They might - but since I am not the one who has to make a decision and my opinion is not limited to only judging my own appreciation and the appreciation of random poll takers (I wonder what a poll of rebels fighting in Libya would say about their appreciation for Western help?), then it hardly seems relevant. Once can, for example, get all kinds of informed and considered viewpoints about the ME without resorting to dubious opinion polls designed to prove how much everyone hates the nasty Americans.

[Valmy]

Yes, apparently the rebels are clinging on to Misrata and making "good progress" towards Tripoli.  Gadaffi is expected to fold at any moment.

You know, just like it was back in February.

Dammit.  This is the slowest advance in a civil war since McClellan's Peninsula Campaign.

[Ed Anger]

Yes, apparently the rebels are clinging on to Misrata and making "good progress" towards Tripoli.  Gadaffi is expected to fold at any moment.

You know, just like it was back in February.

Dammit.  This is the slowest advance in a civil war since McClellan's Peninsula Campaign.

Little Mac was faster.