Libyan Civil War Megathread

[derspiess]

Errh, depending on what you mean. That doesn't mean anything to my own opinion about why we should support the rebels,

It should factor into what you think our policy needs to be.

[jimmy olsen]

Is this still going on?

Yes, apparently the rebels are clinging on to Misrata and making "good progress" towards Tripoli.  Gadaffi is expected to fold at any moment.

You know, just like it was back in February.

Clinging?
Misrata is no longer in any danger of falling.

[derspiess]

Clinging?
Misrata is no longer in any danger of falling.

IIRC it was getting shelled a few days ago.  With rebels like these guys, nothing is totally secure.

[Ancient Demon]

I believe this intervention will end up making the US and Europe more hated among most Libyans, regardless of how eager they are for Western help now.

[Razgovory]

Is this still going on?

Yes, apparently the rebels are clinging on to Misrata and making "good progress" towards Tripoli.  Gadaffi is expected to fold at any moment.

You know, just like it was back in February.

G. R. R. Martin makes quicker progress then these guys.

[Caliga]

I believe this intervention will end up making the US and Europe more hated among most Libyans, regardless of how eager they are for Western help now.

We should have either intervened hardcore, or not intervened at all.  As usual, the politicians want to do everything the half-committed, half-assed way which is worse than doing nothing at all.

[alfred russel]

Also, I don't much care for the idea of validating their crazy by giving in to their idiotic demands, when the truth of the matter is that the US does NOT interfere in the Middle East in general, and certainly not enough to bear any great responsibility for their screwed up societies.

To be fair, when you say interfere you may mean militarily, but I think a rundown of the countries in the near east/middle east/arabic north africa would be illuminating:

Lebanon: Direct military involvement in the not too distant past, indirect in the past few years through our support of Israel.
Israel: Obvious--we prop them up militarily and with aid.
Syria: Under US sanctions and under threat of attack.
Jordan: We send them a ton of aid, aiding their non democratic government. They also have a palestinian problem related to Israel.
Saudi Arabia: We prop them up.
Yemen: We are bombing them.
Oman: I don't know.
Bahrain: We have a naval base/military presence.
Qatar: I don't know.
UAE: I don't know.
Kuwait: They owe their existance to us, and we keep a large military presence there.
Iraq: We've been periodically bombing, invading, occupying them off and on for the past 20 years.
Egypt: We've been sending their non democratic government a ton of aid since the 70s.
Libya: We are bombing them (not for the first time).
Tunisia: I don't know.
Algeria: As far as I know, nothing! We leave messing up this country to the French. I'm not sure Algeria is Arabic though. 

[alfred russel]

I believe this intervention will end up making the US and Europe more hated among most Libyans, regardless of how eager they are for Western help now.

We should have either intervened hardcore, or not intervened at all.  As usual, the politicians want to do everything the half-committed, half-assed way which is worse than doing nothing at all.

Although I've been strongly against military involvement, I agree. This is the worst alternative. It seems likely that Obama tried to find a compromise solution when he needed to pick one side or the other.

[Razgovory]

I believe this intervention will end up making the US and Europe more hated among most Libyans, regardless of how eager they are for Western help now.

We should have either intervened hardcore, or not intervened at all.  As usual, the politicians want to do everything the half-committed, half-assed way which is worse than doing nothing at all.

Although I've been strongly against military involvement, I agree. This is the worst alternative. It seems likely that Obama tried to find a compromise solution when he needed to pick one side or the other.

Also agree.  It was a stupid idea, but if you are going to go, you go all out.

[Berkut]

Errh, depending on what you mean. That doesn't mean anything to my own opinion about why we should support the rebels,

It should factor into what you think our policy needs to be.

It does.

[Admiral Yi]

Just saw on CNN that the US has recognized the Whatever Whatever Council as the legitimate government of Libya.

[KRonn]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/15/libya.us.recognition/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

U.S. recognizes Libyan rebel

Istanbul (CNN) -- The United States will now recognize the main opposition group in Libya "as the legitimate governing authority" in a country that Moammar Gadhafi has long ruled with an iron first, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Friday.

U.S. recognition of the Transitional National Council is a major diplomatic development that could give the rebels access to Libyan regime assets that have been frozen by the United States.

Clinton announced the change in Istanbul, Turkey, at meeting of the Libya Contact Group, the alliance of nations working to deal with the Libyan crisis. Applause rippled through the audience.

Clinton said the Transitional National Council "continues to gain legitimacy as the representative of the Libyan people" and conducts "high-level diplomacy with governments worldwide."
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"So I am announcing today that, until an interim authority is in place, the United States will recognize the TNC as the legitimate governing authority for Libya, and we will deal with it on that basis."

The United States had previously stopped short of giving this recognition to the council, but Clinton said that the body, based in Benghazi, Libya, "has offered important assurances today."

They include "the promise to pursue a process of democratic reform that is inclusive both geographically and politically, to uphold Libya's international obligations, and to disburse funds in a transparent manner to address the humanitarian and other needs of the Libyan people."

The United States "appreciates these assurances from the TNC, which reinforce our confidence that it is the appropriate interlocutor for us in dealing with Libya's present and addressing Libya's future."

The Libyan uprising began in February and opposition forces have been fighting to oust Gadhafi and his regime.

NATO forces have been operating under a U.N. mandate in Libya to protect people from aggression by Gadhafi forces.

Clinton said the United States "will help the TNC sustain its commitment to the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity, and national unity of Libya, and we will look to it to remain steadfast in its commitment to human rights and fundamental freedoms."

"In contrast, the United States views the Gadhafi regime as no longer having any legitimate authority in Libya," she said.

Diplomatic efforts have been afoot to end the crisis, and Clinton said Libyans are "looking past Gadhafi."

"They know, as we all know, that it is no longer a question of whether Gadhafi will leave power, but when."

Clinton said the coalition will continue to target Gadhafi's command and control if he keeps threatening the citizenry.

"The terms of a cease-fire are clear. Gadhafi must stop attacks or the threat of attacks, remove his troops from all of the places they have forcibly entered, and facilitate the delivery of humanitarian assistance."

"The terms of a political process that will produce a cease-fire and pave the way to a democratic Libya are also clear. It must involve Gadhafi's departure and an inclusive effort to build a new constitutional framework that redeems the democratic aspirations of all the Libyan people."

As for the recognition step, a senior State Department official who briefed reporters on the decision reiterated that the TNC's political and economic assurances "turned the tide" in their favor.

The United States wanted "to send a clear signal to Gadhafi" that the "world is looking to a future without him," and "we felt this step today makes that loud and clear," the official said.

A final statement issued by the Contact Group raised a range of points, including an agreement by the participants "to deal" with the NTC "as the legitimate governing authority" in the country "until an interim authority is in place." It also welcomed monetary pledges and encouraged financial help.

"Noting that the unfolding situation in Libya since mid-February has disrupted the operations of foreign companies and contractors, the Contact Group welcomed the commitment of the NTC to open up Libya to foreign investment as soon as possible and its commitment to honor any existing legal contracts signed under the Gadhafi regime," it said.

It also cited "the need for establishment of a genuine cease-fire and provision of safe humanitarian access remain as urgent as ever."

The group "urged all relevant parties to explore ways and means of paving the way for the formation of an interim government to ensure a smooth and peaceful transition of power with the widest popular support possible," it said.

[jimmy olsen]

Surprised it took us this long.

[Razgovory]

Surprised it took us this long.

I"m not.  Obama has been wishy-washy on the damn thing.  I've very disappointed in him.

[Sheilbh]

Lebanon: Direct military involvement in the not too distant past, indirect in the past few years through our support of Israel.
Israel: Obvious--we prop them up militarily and with aid.
Syria: Under US sanctions and under threat of attack.
Jordan: We send them a ton of aid, aiding their non democratic government. They also have a palestinian problem related to Israel.
Saudi Arabia: We prop them up.
Yemen: We are bombing them.
Bahrain: We have a naval base/military presence.
Kuwait: They owe their existance to us, and we keep a large military presence there.
Iraq: We've been periodically bombing, invading, occupying them off and on for the past 20 years.
Egypt: We've been sending their non democratic government a ton of aid since the 70s.
Libya: We are bombing them (not for the first time).
Algeria: As far as I know, nothing! We leave messing up this country to the French. I'm not sure Algeria is Arabic though. 

All fair.

Oman: I don't know.

Probably Britain's best friend in the region.  But still very close to the US.

Qatar: I don't know.
UAE: I don't know.

Like Oman reasonably close because of the whole Persian Gulf/Iran thing.  Not so friendly with Qatar though.

Tunisia: I don't know.

Me neither.  I'd guess the same as Algeria.

Also don't forget Morocco whose secret police has been used to torture  renditioned terrorist suspects, probably with the acquiesence of British and American intelligence officers.  And what happens in Morocco's prisons are the sort of things even John Yoo would consider torture.