British Freedom of Speech withered, dying

[Sheilbh]

I'm pretty sure there's a bit of that stuff already.

You're probably right I think there are jokes about that sort of thing in 'Goodness Gracious Me'.

[Admiral Yi]

That is why the melting pot metaphor doesnt work in NYC either.  People dont get melted together and all end up being the same thing.

Have the original Dutch settlers maintained a unique culture?

[crazy canuck]

That is why the melting pot metaphor doesnt work in NYC either.  People dont get melted together and all end up being the same thing.

Have the original Dutch settlers maintained a unique culture?

I dont know.  You tell me.  Also, tell me what the relevance of you question is.  Do all people in NY, or any other American city have the same culture or is the melting pot metaphor flawed in some way?

[Sheilbh]

Have the original Dutch settlers maintained a unique culture?

Is Massachusetts a hot-bed of Protestant puritans?

Edit:  Hot-beds an unfortunate word choice for puritans....

[Berkut]

That is why the melting pot metaphor doesnt work in NYC either.  People dont get melted together and all end up being the same thing.

Have the original Dutch settlers maintained a unique culture?

I dont know.  You tell me.  Also, tell me what the relevance of you question is.  Do all people in NY, or any other American city have the same culture or is the melting pot metaphor flawed in some way?

The "melting pot" metaphor is just that - a metaphor. Demanding that it have some kind of rigid objective definition (which of course it will fail) is a bit silly.

the "salad bowl" is just as much a metaphor, and both of them while trying to differentiate between two different supposed states, are, IMO, describing the exact same process, without any real differentiation beyond that one would expect from the differences in timeframes and cultures involved.

[Malthus]

Yeah, same in Vancouver.  One of them is even called the "United Nations" 

Right bunch of murderous bastards, it seems.

Do they tag stop signs in Esperanto? 

I suppose they publish declarations in turged prose about how they "deplore" the activities of rival gangs. 

[Admiral Yi]

I dont know.  You tell me.  Also, tell me what the relevance of you question is.  Do all people in NY, or any other American city have the same culture or is the melting pot metaphor flawed in some way?

Not that I'm aware of.

The melting pot is an ongoing process.  No one is claiming that immigrants step off the plane and magically transform into Mr. and Mrs. White Suburbanite with 2.2 kids.

[crazy canuck]

the "salad bowl" is just as much a metaphor, and both of them while trying to differentiate between two different supposed states, are, IMO, describing the exact same process, without any real differentiation beyond that one would expect from the differences in timeframes and cultures involved.

You are missing the point.  The metaphor was used in the US to try to say that it was not a nation of different nationalities but rather one nation of one people.   It was a good powerful myth and probably continues to be but it is a myth nontheless.

[Berkut]

the "salad bowl" is just as much a metaphor, and both of them while trying to differentiate between two different supposed states, are, IMO, describing the exact same process, without any real differentiation beyond that one would expect from the differences in timeframes and cultures involved.

You are missing the point.  The metaphor was used in the US to try to say that it was not a nation of different nationalities but rather one nation of one people.   It was a good powerful myth and probably continues to be but it is a myth nontheless.

No, actually I think I am exactly getting the point. Of course it is not a "myth" - or rather, it isn't so much a myth as it is a metaphor, like I said. Metaphiors are not perfect, nor are they "myths" just because they don't perfectly describe what is happening.

And that is not at all the what it was trying to say - it is simply saying that the US is a combination of many different cultures, all coming together to create something new. Not a perfect description of course, but not inaccurate either. Certainly not a myth, good, powerful, or otherwise.

[crazy canuck]

  No one is claiming that immigrants step off the plane and magically transform into Mr. and Mrs. White Suburbanite with 2.2 kids.

No, but the claim is that the melting pot makes everyone the same.  A quick wiki check on the use of the term in American history confirms my observation.  Here is an early quote desribing the melting pot "process"

"What then is the American, this new man?" that the American is one who "leaving behind him all his ancient prejudices and manners, receives new ones from the new mode of life he has embraced, the government he obeys, and the new rank he holds. He becomes an American by being received in the broad lap of our great Alma Mater. Here individuals of all nations are melted into a new race of men, whose labors and posterity will one day cause great changes in the world."

[crazy canuck]

the "salad bowl" is just as much a metaphor, and both of them while trying to differentiate between two different supposed states, are, IMO, describing the exact same process, without any real differentiation beyond that one would expect from the differences in timeframes and cultures involved.

You are missing the point.  The metaphor was used in the US to try to say that it was not a nation of different nationalities but rather one nation of one people.   It was a good powerful myth and probably continues to be but it is a myth nontheless.

No, actually I think I am exactly getting the point. Of course it is not a "myth" - or rather, it isn't so much a myth as it is a metaphor, like I said. Metaphiors are not perfect, nor are they "myths" just because they don't perfectly describe what is happening.

And that is not at all the what it was trying to say - it is simply saying that the US is a combination of many different cultures, all coming together to create something new. Not a perfect description of course, but not inaccurate either. Certainly not a myth, good, powerful, or otherwise.

Go back and look at the historical use of the term within your country. 

[Berkut]

  No one is claiming that immigrants step off the plane and magically transform into Mr. and Mrs. White Suburbanite with 2.2 kids.

No, but the claim is that the melting pot makes everyone the same.

OK, if you re-define the term to only mean what YOU want it to mean, then you can proudly declare it a myth.

A quick wiki check on the use of the term in American history confirms my observation.  Here is an early quote desribing the melting pot "process"

"What then is the American, this new man?" that the American is one who "leaving behind him all his ancient prejudices and manners, receives new ones from the new mode of life he has embraced, the government he obeys, and the new rank he holds. He becomes an American by being received in the broad lap of our great Alma Mater. Here individuals of all nations are melted into a new race of men, whose labors and posterity will one day cause great changes in the world."

This doesn't say anything about making everyone the same - it says that different cultures will come together and create a new culture which is a combination of the others. Again - it is a metaphor. It doesn't really happen in some kind of augimagical manner, nor did anyone really believe that it did. At no point in American history has anyone thought that America was one homogeneous culture.

You aren't enlightening anyone CC. We know the "melting pot" thing isn't a literal description.

[crazy canuck]

"Understand that America is God's Crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of Europe are melting and re-forming! Here you stand, good folk, think I, when I see them at Ellis Island, here you stand in your fifty groups, your fifty languages, and histories, and your fifty blood hatreds and rivalries. But you won't be long like that, brothers, for these are the fires of God you've come to – these are fires of God. A fig for your feuds and vendettas! Germans and Frenchmen, Irishmen and Englishmen, Jews and Russians—into the Crucible with you all! God is making the American."

Really Berkut.  I am wrong about the melting pot metaphor being used to describe the creation of a new nation out of other nations?

[Berkut]

"Understand that America is God's Crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of Europe are melting and re-forming! Here you stand, good folk, think I, when I see them at Ellis Island, here you stand in your fifty groups, your fifty languages, and histories, and your fifty blood hatreds and rivalries. But you won't be long like that, brothers, for these are the fires of God you've come to – these are fires of God. A fig for your feuds and vendettas! Germans and Frenchmen, Irishmen and Englishmen, Jews and Russians—into the Crucible with you all! God is making the American."

Really Berkut.  I am wrong about the melting pot metaphor being used to describe the creation of a new nation out of other nations?

Of course not - but you are wrong when you claim the "melting pot" metaphor is a myth because it "didn't make all people the same".

[Eddie Teach]

No, but the claim is that the melting pot makes everyone the same.  A quick wiki check on the use of the term in American history confirms my observation.  Here is an early quote desribing the melting pot "process"

It doesn't make individuals the same, it just makes them part of the same culture. For evidence that it does work to a great extent, I present Tim, Yi, Katmai, Jaron, Garbon etc.(not to mention that "Irish-Americans" "German-Americans" "Polish-Americans" etc are utterly indistinguishable.)