[Gay] Lesbians parents better at raising children

[Valmy]

Yeah, that's true. Maybe there aren't many female surgeons, but doctors overall have plenty of women. Likewise, in lawyering, there are some areas that are virtually dominated by women. In Poland at least, we also have plenty of female judges.

I have a further thought about this...it seems to be based entirely on surveys.  Children of lesbians are more likely to champion certain causes or aspire to things.  What are their actual results of the children's lives?  Are the sample groups controlled for things like income and educational levels?  Are they being compared to only straight couples that raised their biological children together?

I mean not that it matters.  In my book any adult who wants to raise children will get my blessing regardless of their sexuality.

[Martinus]

Since Lesbians are unlikely to get pregnant by accident, the demographic is skewed in favour of those who go through considerable effort & trouble to be parents - as opposed to the hetero category, which includes a percentage of those too dumb to use birth control and too squeamish or religious to get abortions.

Actually the few lesbian couples I know have children from previous, straight, relationships.

Chances are you will still get significant statistical skewing. Certainly some percentage of lesbian women will have "accidental kids", but chances are very high that less will than straight women, since straight woman sexuality involves doing things that often risk pregnacy for fun and gay woman sexuality doesn't.

Actually, you are probably wrong, but not sure if this would be statistically significant. I read about some statistics showing that gay people who have straight sex early in their life are more likely to "Try for a Kid" (in Sims 3 terms) than the sexually not-confused straight kids. Apparently, this is a psychological mechanism resulting from the denial of one's sexual identity.

Not sure what you mean. To me, it seems the equation goes like this:

1 - Those who have kids by chance, without specifically wanting them, are more likely to have lousy parenting skills than those who want them.

2. - On average, the more a women screws guys, the more likely they are to get pregnant (assuming for the sake of argument birth control status etc is the same).

3 - The "hetero woman" category contains a larger percentage of women who will have kids without wanting them than the "gay women" category, because on average they, by definition, screw more guys (not to deny that gay women have previous hetero relations, get raped, etc., but *on average* they screw less guys than straight women on average).

4 - If these three points are correct, then one would predict that the *average* gay women makes a better parent than the average straight one - since they are more likely to have a kid by choice rather than chance.

Where is the flaw in this logic?

No, what I mean you are disregarding a category of gay woman (or gay man) who is still in denial about her or his sexuality and gets pregnant (or gets someone else pregnant) early in their life. Such people "want" kids (more or less consciously) but they want them for the wrong reasons (validation of their hoped-for heterosexuality), and thus imo fall into the category of the "bad" parent. According to statistics I read such people are more likely to have kids than straight people of their age.

[Martinus]

Yeah, that's true. Maybe there aren't many female surgeons, but doctors overall have plenty of women. Likewise, in lawyering, there are some areas that are virtually dominated by women. In Poland at least, we also have plenty of female judges.

I have a further thought about this...it seems to be based entirely on surveys.  Children of lesbians are more likely to champion certain causes or aspire to things.  What are their actual results of the children's lives?  Are the sample groups controlled for things like income and educational levels?  Are they being compared to only straight couples that raised their biological children together?

I mean not that it matters.  In my book any adult who wants to raise children will get my blessing regardless of their sexuality.

I guess we don't have yet statistically significant results to compare kids raised to adulthood by gay couples since it is a relatively recent phenomenon (sure, gay people have been raising kids for generations, but having actually two openly gay parents of the same sex is a new thing and probably less than a generation old).

[Valmy]

No, what I mean you are disregarding a category of gay woman (or gay man) who is still in denial about her or his sexuality and gets pregnant (or gets someone else pregnant) early in their life. Such people "want" kids (more or less consciously) but they want them for the wrong reasons (validation of their hoped-for heterosexuality), and thus imo fall into the category of the "bad" parent. According to statistics I read such people are more likely to have kids than straight people of their age.

Ok let me ask you this question: what sort of woman has more children on average a gay woman or a straight woman?

[Barrister]

Daughters of lesbians are more likely to aspire to professions that were traditionally considered male, such as doctors or lawyers.

This is actually a good metric though it sorta throws me off.  Talk about dead traditions, I don't think anybody has considered those two professions male since the 1970s.  I thought they were going to talk about the military or math and science something that is currently thought of as male.  If we are going to get into archaic ideas of gender relations you can safely regard any profession outside of Nursing, Teaching, and Secretarial work as being male.  Even being a professional cook was considered male.

No kidding.  I don't think doctors or lawyers have been male dominated for 20 years.  Hell I think law schools are consistently pumping out more female graduates than male graduates for some time now.

[crazy canuck]

No kidding.  I don't think doctors or lawyers have been male dominated for 20 years.  Hell I think law schools are consistently pumping out more female graduates than male graduates for some time now.

In fact there is a lot of study now as to why that is and how male numbers can be brought back into par with females.

[The Brain]

Daughters of lesbians are more likely to aspire to professions that were traditionally considered male, such as doctors or lawyers.

This is actually a good metric though it sorta throws me off.  Talk about dead traditions, I don't think anybody has considered those two professions male since the 1970s.  I thought they were going to talk about the military or math and science something that is currently thought of as male.  If we are going to get into archaic ideas of gender relations you can safely regard any profession outside of Nursing, Teaching, and Secretarial work as being male.  Even being a professional cook was considered male.

No kidding.  I don't think doctors or lawyers have been male dominated for 20 years.  Hell I think law schools are consistently pumping out more female graduates than male graduates for some time now.

did you pump out many female graduates

[Valmy]

I guess we don't have yet statistically significant results to compare kids raised to adulthood by gay couples since it is a relatively recent phenomenon (sure, gay people have been raising kids for generations, but having actually two openly gay parents of the same sex is a new thing and probably less than a generation old).

Well then performance in school and behavior issues and other things would be a good metric than simply asking a kid how they feel about certain things and drawing conclusions from there.

But again I just found the way they drew their conclusions weird, I have no problem with the conclusion itself...besides the unfortunate idea that to better raise my children I should become  Lesbian.

[Barrister]

Not sure what you mean. To me, it seems the equation goes like this:

1 - Those who have kids by chance, without specifically wanting them, are more likely to have lousy parenting skills than those who want them.

2. - On average, the more a women screws guys, the more likely they are to get pregnant (assuming for the sake of argument birth control status etc is the same).

3 - The "hetero woman" category contains a larger percentage of women who will have kids without wanting them than the "gay women" category, because on average they, by definition, screw more guys (not to deny that gay women have previous hetero relations, get raped, etc., but *on average* they screw less guys than straight women on average).

4 - If these three points are correct, then one would predict that the *average* gay women makes a better parent than the average straight one - since they are more likely to have a kid by choice rather than chance.

Where is the flaw in this logic?

I think the flaw in your argument is relating amount of sex to procreating.  In this day and age of birth control and condoms a woman has so much more say on having a child that there's very little connection.

OF course it's still true that by NOT having straight sex you're guaranteed to not have children.   

[Barrister]

did you pump out many female graduates

I pumped in (and occasionally, on) many female graduates.




Well, not really, but the reply had to be made.   

[Martinus]

No, what I mean you are disregarding a category of gay woman (or gay man) who is still in denial about her or his sexuality and gets pregnant (or gets someone else pregnant) early in their life. Such people "want" kids (more or less consciously) but they want them for the wrong reasons (validation of their hoped-for heterosexuality), and thus imo fall into the category of the "bad" parent. According to statistics I read such people are more likely to have kids than straight people of their age.

Ok let me ask you this question: what sort of woman has more children on average a gay woman or a straight woman?

How is this question relevant? After all we are talking about proportions, not absolute numbers (otherwise comparing children raised by heterosexual couples with children raised by gay couples would always show there are MORE children raised by heterosexual couples that meet ANY possible criteria, since there are simply more of them).

My point is that it is not true that gay parents are necessarily going to have a higher proportion of "planned" children than straight parents, and if you just look at early sexual lifestyles, gay parents are MORE LIKELY to have a higher PROPORTION of "unplanned" children than straight parents.

I do not question that straight parents have more children in absolute numbers, whether planned or not. 

[Malthus]

No, what I mean you are disregarding a category of gay woman (or gay man) who is still in denial about her or his sexuality and gets pregnant (or gets someone else pregnant) early in their life. Such people "want" kids (more or less consciously) but they want them for the wrong reasons (validation of their hoped-for heterosexuality), and thus imo fall into the category of the "bad" parent. According to statistics I read such people are more likely to have kids than straight people of their age.

You are right, I never considered that.

The fact that women who later turn out to be gay have more children than women who do not of the same age indicates that there are some women who fall into the category you mention.

However, I have strong doubts whether the purportion of "bad" lesbian parents who had kids for this reason, then "came out" later in life, outnumbers in statistical significance among lesbians (remembering that of course not all lesbian women have kids by their hetero partners for "bad" reasons) the purportion of straight women who have kids at some point throughout their lives simply because they are careless, among straight women. Seems to me the latter would be a torrent and the former a trickle, as it were.

That said, I obviously do not have any statistics to back it up.

[Razgovory]

But then the idea that you are delusional is also considered mainstream psychology. So if you say something is considered mainstream psychology, is it true or is it part of your delusion?

I think I discovered the Raz's Paradox.

Some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person's lifetime. Individuals maybe become aware at different points in their lives that they are heterosexual, gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

http://www.aglp.org/pages/cfactsheets.html#Anchor-Gay-14210

Now I don't agree with everything here.  Personally I think that homosexuality fits the criteria of mental illness but a fiat decision in the 1970's was made to declassify it as such, (though other paraphilia such as sexual preference for children or goats or dead people or what ever still remain),  but this is mainstream psychology.

[Valmy]

How is this question relevant? After all we are talking about proportions

I am talking about proportions as well.  Children per woman.  Which sort of, as in one single, woman is going to have more children.  It just seems logical to me that if a straight woman is going to have 2.3 children and a Lesbian is going to have 1.8 (totally made up numbers) then that suggests a high number of unwanted children per woman.  I mean unless getting pregnant accidentally is something more prevalent in lesbians...

My point is that it is not true that gay parents are necessarily going to have a higher proportion of "planned" children than straight parents

Didn't you just say they were in fact planned children based on the gay persons desire to have children to prove themselves straight?  Is that really the same sort of thing as an accidental pregnancy?  Straight people have planned children for bad reasons all the time as well...planning to have a baby for a bad reason is not the same as unexpected pregnancy.  You are still prepared to have a child and raise it in that case.

Or are you suggesting gay people do not want to have children but have them accidentally out of some sort of deep psychosis they are not aware of?

I am confused.

[Martinus]

How is this question relevant? After all we are talking about proportions

I am talking about proportions as well.  Children per woman.  Which sort of, as in one single, woman is going to have more children.  It just seems logical to me that if a straight woman is going to have 2.3 children and a Lesbian is going to have 1.8 (totally made up numbers) then that suggests a high number of unwanted children per woman.  I mean unless getting pregnant accidentally is something more prevalent in lesbians...

My point is that it is not true that gay parents are necessarily going to have a higher proportion of "planned" children than straight parents

Didn't you just say they were in fact planned children based on the gay persons desire to have children to prove themselves straight?  Is that really the same sort of thing as an accidental pregnancy?  Straight people have planned children for bad reasons all the time as well...planning to have a baby for a bad reason is not the same as unexpected pregnancy.  You are still prepared to have a child and raise it in that case.

Or are you suggesting gay people do not want to have children but have them accidentally out of some sort of deep psychosis they are not aware of?

I am confused.

Well I meant "unplanned" in that they aren't really planned in the sense of there being some conscious thought about wanting a kid to raise - but rather just wanting to impregnate/be impregnated by someone. I explained that in my previous post.

Essentially, they "want" children for immature reasons and as such are no better than people who have children "by accident".

And yes, gays and lesbians in deep denial can be seen to be suffering from a deep psychosis, one that is caused by the society and religion they grew up in.