Societies don't have to be secular to be modern

[Razgovory]

We never have Napoleonic hijacks.

[Neil]

I believe you used the words "native language", but you did admit to constantly forgetting "english is not [my] native language", so I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one; maybe you weren't dishonest, but merely forgetful. 

Nope, didn't use either of those phrases earlier.  I really think you are so fixated on me that you are lumping every poster who has disagreed with you into "grumbler."  I have mno idea what your nationality or native language is, and no desire to know.

I dunno.  It sounds like something you would do.

[Ed Anger]

We never have Napoleonic hijacks.

Nappy shouldn't have sent Davout to Hamburg in 1813.

[PDH]

We never have Napoleonic hijacks.

Nappy shouldn't have sent Davout to Hamburg in 1813.

Fucking A right.
Whole 1813 would have been different if Davout there - imagine him flanking at Bautzen, it would have been all over.

[crazy canuck]

We never have Napoleonic hijacks.

Nappy shouldn't have sent Davout to Hamburg in 1813.

Fucking A right.
Whole 1813 would have been different if Davout there - imagine him flanking at Bautzen, it would have been all over.

If all I do is imagine him doing it nothing would change in reality.

[Ed Anger]

We never have Napoleonic hijacks.

Nappy shouldn't have sent Davout to Hamburg in 1813.

Fucking A right.
Whole 1813 would have been different if Davout there - imagine him flanking at Bautzen, it would have been all over.

I'd like to have seen Davout vs Bernadotte. A pissed off bald guy versus a Fake Swede with no military talent.

[Alatriste]

A few comments:

- Hamburg and several nearby strong places, like Stade and Gluckstadt, were vital because they allowed the French to close the Elbe to navigation. During the Napoleonic Wars navigable rivers were equivalent of railroads after the Industrial Revolution, allowing much faster and economic transport (unlike horses, barges don't eat). In 1813 Napoleon dedicated very strong efforts to deny the use of those rivers to the Allies, sending strong garrisons and good generals to Hamburg on the Elbe, Stettin on the Oder, Danzig on the Vistula...

- Don't sell Bernadotte so cheap. He has had precious few friends and an awful lot of enemies that have poured endless abuse on him, from Napoleonic nostalgics to Bourbon Legitimists and Prussian nationalists, but for starters Napoleon saw something special in him, otherwise he wouldn't have allowed Bernadotte to join the 'family'... details are scarce and a bit shady, but it was Napoleon who invited him into the Bonaparte-Clary circle and very probably introduced Bernadotte to Desirée. 

At the very least he seems to have excelled at administration & diplomacy, the troops he commanded always liked him, and certainly he knew how to be likeable and gain the most improbable friends, as the lasting impression he made on the Swedish in 1807 shows. Besides, his record is significantly lacking in defeats, and his conduct in 1813-14 was actually quite good. True, his opponents were Oudinot, Macdonald and Ney... but let's remember the great Davout didn't exactly smash his opponents up North, the French raw recruits of 1813 simply were too green to be of much use, and Napoleon was siphoning the best of them for his own army.     

- Which brings us to Davout. There is no doubt he was one of the best generals Napoleon had, and probably the most faithful and loyal to him, but still Napoleon didn't send him to Spain and didn't listen to his advice in Borodino; clearly . In addition, the man had his weak points too: for all the good he did Davout could have disappeared during the Retreat from Moscow; when the army disintegrated and Ney became a giant, Davout, according to our sources, almost became a non entity. Regarding his character, he was cold, distant and a stern disciplinarian, his troops respected him but didn't like him, and between his peers he was so good at making enemies as Bernadotte was at making friends (only half jokingly he has been called the model after which German generals were made after 1815).   

[grumbler]

A few comments:

- Hamburg and several nearby strong places, like Stade and Gluckstadt, were vital because they allowed the French to close the Elbe to navigation. During the Napoleonic Wars navigable rivers were equivalent of railroads after the Industrial Revolution, allowing much faster and economic transport (unlike horses, barges don't eat). In 1813 Napoleon dedicated very strong efforts to deny the use of those rivers to the Allies, sending strong garrisons and good generals to Hamburg on the Elbe, Stettin on the Oder, Danzig on the Vistula...

- Don't sell Bernadotte so cheap. He has had precious few friends and an awful lot of enemies that have poured endless abuse on him, from Napoleonic nostalgics to Bourbon Legitimists and Prussian nationalists, but for starters Napoleon saw something special in him, otherwise he wouldn't have allowed Bernadotte to join the 'family'... details are scarce and a bit shady, but it was Napoleon who invited him into the Bonaparte-Clary circle and very probably introduced Bernadotte to Desirée. 

At the very least he seems to have excelled at administration & diplomacy, the troops he commanded always liked him, and certainly he knew how to be likeable and gain the most improbable friends, as the lasting impression he made on the Swedish in 1807 shows. Besides, his record is significantly lacking in defeats, and his conduct in 1813-14 was actually quite good. True, his opponents were Oudinot, Macdonald and Ney... but let's remember the great Davout didn't exactly smash his opponents up North, the French raw recruits of 1813 simply were too green to be of much use, and Napoleon was siphoning the best of them for his own army.     

- Which brings us to Davout. There is no doubt he was one of the best generals Napoleon had, and probably the most faithful and loyal to him, but still Napoleon didn't send him to Spain and didn't listen to his advice in Borodino; clearly . In addition, the man had his weak points too: for all the good he did Davout could have disappeared during the Retreat from Moscow; when the army disintegrated and Ney became a giant, Davout, according to our sources, almost became a non entity. Regarding his character, he was cold, distant and a stern disciplinarian, his troops respected him but didn't like him, and between his peers he was so good at making enemies as Bernadotte was at making friends (only half jokingly he has been called the model after which German generals were made after 1815). 

Bernadotte's record is spotted with defeats.    The rout of his troops at Wagram is just one example.  He was very charasmatic, but not very good as a general.  He did represent the Jacobin wing of French politics, though, and was the best token Jacobin napoleon could find, so he "recruited" him into the family and the Marshalate (sp) - but didn't give himmany military responsibilities.  Barnadotte was an excellent ambassador, though treacherous when his personal goals and those of his master diverged.  Napoleon was almost constantly on the verge of sacking him, but the need to keep a prominent Jacobin close to him deterred him until the Wagram debacle made it clear that Bernadotte would ruin any troops under his command.

Davout is, as you noted, a different kettle of fish.  He was uncharismatic to an extreme, but brilliant at everything he turned his hand to.  Napoelon's problem with Davout was that Davout threatened to be too good and steal the master's thunder.  Davout couldn't be counted on to be personally friendly like Lannes and depreciate his  own work in favor of Napoleon.

The argument that the retreat from Moscow says something negative about Davout because he wasn't Ney amuses me; who did come out of that campaign smelling like a rose, other than Ney?  If the standard of adequacy is "as good a Ney during the retreat from Moscow' then Napoleon was inadequate.

And yes, Davout was smashing his enemies in the North in 1813-1814.  It took him some time to train up his troops, but he won every battle.  Just like he won every other battle in which he commanded - and remember that the French last lost a battle when Davout was present in 1797.

[Valmy]

Since I often find myself contemplating whether or not Davout was a divine figure this hijack makes perfect sense.

[grumbler]

Since I often find myself contemplating whether or not Davout was a divine figure this hijack makes perfect sense.

Davout was both good and lucky.  For a general, that is close to "divine." 

[Eddie Teach]

Would that make you a devout devotee of Davout?

[Viking]

Davout was on the losing side that makes him both unlucky (for being on the wrong side) and not very good (at either getting his side to win or picking the winning side).

At the end of the game

Bernadotte - King of Sweden and Norway
Davoust - Mayor of a Paris Suburb and his name misspelled on the Arc-du-Triomphe

I suspect Bernadotte has more VP.

[Valmy]

Bernadotte - King of Sweden and Norway
Davoust - Mayor of a Paris Suburb and his name misspelled on the Arc-du-Triomphe

Mayor of a Paris Suburb > King of Sweden and Norway.

Winner = Davout

[grumbler]

Davout was on the losing side that makes him both unlucky (for being on the wrong side) and not very good (at either getting his side to win or picking the winning side).

At the end of the game

Bernadotte - King of Sweden and Norway
Davoust - Mayor of a Paris Suburb and his name misspelled on the Arc-du-Triomphe

I suspect Bernadotte has more VP.

Nope.  In what matters, the results are a tie:
Davout:  dead
Bernie: dead
All VP are lost with death.

If VPs were posthumously granted for hotness of great-whatever-daughters, Bernie would win, though.

[Viking]

If they had met post war Davout would have had to bow before Kung Karl XIV Johan av Sverige och Karl III Johan av Norge.