Jimmy Carter: Wilson comments 'based on racism'

[Savonarola]

The problem here is not with the people attacking Obama, it is with the people defending Obama by accusing those who attack him of racism without grounds to do so, and then defending themselves by saying "Oh, well we all know what they REALLY mean!"

I expect this will become more common going forward.  In this case the issue at hand, health care, is incredibly complex.  There are dozens of different ways to approach the bill and no one knows exactly how they'll pan out in the real world.  Approaching the issue logically is difficult and it's also difficult to keep voters awake as the pundits debate that.

Approachign the issue emotionally, however, is easy.  People who oppose Obama's health care plan are racist and racism is bad.  Anyone can understand that.

[Berkut]

See, THIS is a good example of rather clear racism.

[DontSayBanana]

Use an educated guess:  Am I a racist?

Not really. Homophobe, certainly, but you seem to be pretty equal-opportunity in your contempt for all others.

[Faeelin]

See, THIS is a good example of rather clear racism.

Sure.

But there's plenty of racism today that isn't overt, no? How do you tell what's what? It's pretty clear to me that a lot of the anger at Obama is that he's a black man, and he represents a real and fundamental change in the world for a lot of whites.

[Admiral Yi]

Sure.

But there's plenty of racism today that isn't overt, no? How do you tell what's what? It's pretty clear to me that a lot of the anger at Obama is that he's a black man, and he represents a real and fundamental change in the world for a lot of whites.

Great.  Tell us how you tell what's what.

[Berkut]

See, THIS is a good example of rather clear racism.

Sure.

But there's plenty of racism today that isn't overt, no? How do you tell what's what? It's pretty clear to me that a lot of the anger at Obama is that he's a black man, and he represents a real and fundamental change in the world for a lot of whites.

See, that is not remotely clear to me at all, and I wonder how it is "pretty clear" to anyone else. If it is "pretty clear" then you pretty clearly have pretty clear evidence that "a lot" of the anger is racist in nature.

I don't buy it. I think if another Dem who was identical to Obama in every way except he was white, would be seeing the same response.

[Neil]

Use an educated guess:  Am I a racist?

Not really. Homophobe, certainly, but you seem to be pretty equal-opportunity in your contempt for all others.

Wrong.

[The Minsky Moment]

I expect this will become more common going forward.  In this case the issue at hand, health care, is incredibly complex.  There are dozens of different ways to approach the bill and no one knows exactly how they'll pan out in the real world.  Approaching the issue logically is difficult and it's also difficult to keep voters awake as the pundits debate that.

Approachign the issue emotionally, however, is easy

It's a good thing the opponents of the plan have been addressing the issue so logically then - with insane rants about death panels and socialism.

This is really a bit rich - there are elected GOP officials and party leaders who have gone on record repeatedly saying outrageous and misleading things about the health care proposals, and flooded the airwaves with nonsense precisely with the aim of evoking an emotional response and avoiding any rational discussions.  These tea party demonstrations are all about appealing to emotions, nothing about having a rational debate.

And disrupting the town meetings by shouting down anyone who tries to speak in favor is all about destroying the possibility of rational discourse.

But oh no - god forbid someone question the motivations of some of these people - then it is playing the "race card" and being "emotional" instead of approaching the issue logically.

People in glass skyscrapers . . .

[Faeelin]

See, that is not remotely clear to me at all, and I wonder how it is "pretty clear" to anyone else. If it is "pretty clear" then you pretty clearly have pretty clear evidence that "a lot" of the anger is racist in nature.

I don't buy it. I think if another Dem who was identical to Obama in every way except he was white, would be seeing the same response.

You think Rush Limbaugh would be warning the Republican base about the racial warfare the president's brought on?

[Berkut]

See, that is not remotely clear to me at all, and I wonder how it is "pretty clear" to anyone else. If it is "pretty clear" then you pretty clearly have pretty clear evidence that "a lot" of the anger is racist in nature.

I don't buy it. I think if another Dem who was identical to Obama in every way except he was white, would be seeing the same response.

You think Rush Limbaugh would be warning the Republican base about the racial warfare the president's brought on?

I don't, haven't really listened to much Rush, so how can I say?

[Berkut]

I expect this will become more common going forward.  In this case the issue at hand, health care, is incredibly complex.  There are dozens of different ways to approach the bill and no one knows exactly how they'll pan out in the real world.  Approaching the issue logically is difficult and it's also difficult to keep voters awake as the pundits debate that.

Approachign the issue emotionally, however, is easy

It's a good thing the opponents of the plan have been addressing the issue so logically then - with insane rants about death panels and socialism.

This is really a bit rich - there are elected GOP officials and party leaders who have gone on record repeatedly saying outrageous and misleading things about the health care proposals, and flooded the airwaves with nonsense precisely with the aim of evoking an emotional response and avoiding any rational discussions.  These tea party demonstrations are all about appealing to emotions, nothing about having a rational debate.

And disrupting the town meetings by shouting down anyone who tries to speak in favor is all about destroying the possibility of rational discourse.

But oh no - god forbid someone question the motivations of some of these people - then it is playing the "race card" and being "emotional" instead of approaching the issue logically.

People in glass skyscrapers . . .

So as long as some people somewhere engage in irrational debate tactics (and yeah, I am sure the Dems have not done any of THAT!), then it is ok to accuse anyone engaging in ANY kind of debate, rational or otherwise, of being a racist?

[The Minsky Moment]

So as long as some people somewhere engage in irrational debate tactics (and yeah, I am sure the Dems have not done any of THAT!), then it is ok to accuse anyone engaging in ANY kind of debate, rational or otherwise, of being a racist?

An interesting rhetorical question, but an irrelevant one, because no one here has made that claim.

All I am saying is that the GOP and the tea party crowd don't have a leg to stand on if they want to accuse the Dems of trying to avoid discussing the issue rationally.

[Savonarola]

It's a good thing the opponents of the plan have been addressing the issue so logically then - with insane rants about death panels and socialism.

This is really a bit rich - there are elected GOP officials and party leaders who have gone on record repeatedly saying outrageous and misleading things about the health care proposals, and flooded the airwaves with nonsense precisely with the aim of evoking an emotional response and avoiding any rational discussions.  These tea party demonstrations are all about appealing to emotions, nothing about having a rational debate.

And disrupting the town meetings by shouting down anyone who tries to speak in favor is all about destroying the possibility of rational discourse.

But oh no - god forbid someone question the motivations of some of these people - then it is playing the "race card" and being "emotional" instead of approaching the issue logically.

People in glass skyscrapers . . .

I've never said that opponents of health care presented only logical arguments; in fact I wrote out similarly against them in a town hall thread.  The issue that concerns me most isn't the merits of the health care reform; but that the issue is so complex that voters are incapable of understanding the full ramifications of it.  It is necessary for elected officials to appeal to hatred of racism or fear of death panels in order to win support.  Many issues are like this; and I think that is a threat to democracy as a system of government.

[The Minsky Moment]

It isn't necessary; it is failure of leadership.  The GOP is a leaderless party and the McCains of the party have completely lost control to the radio and TV talk show crowd.  When the de facto leadership of a major political party is more concerned about Nielsen ratings than public policy, that is going to have a corrosive effect on public life.

In theory the Democrats should be more organized since they have an obvious charasmatic leader, but for some reason Obama has adopted this cool detached approach, and so the moveons slip into the vacuum and clowns like Carter come out of the woodwork.

[garbon]

It's pretty clear to me that a lot of the anger at Obama is that he's a black man, and he represents a real and fundamental change in the world for a lot of whites.

That's why I'm angry.