British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[HVC]

They don't really translate in Montreal's China town either.

It's the kind of law that is only enforce if someones complains & since no one does except the random "can't find any real news" journalist. It's not really enforced, especially in China Town.

and i guess most would only complain about english signs.

On the whole economic side of it, i'm still highly amused that my bank, the Bank of Montreal, is headquartered in toronto.

[Malthus]

So it would be illegal then for me to post an ad in strictly English, for example? A completely private advertisement?

Absolutely.

Moreover, it would be illegal to post a bilingual ad in which the French was the same size as the English.

French must "predominate".

No. Any type of ad, in English speaking media - TV, newspaper, internet - is fine. Political speech is fine. You get unilingual political signs on lawns. What is targetted is outdoors or indoors commercial ads. You can't post «SALE» without posting «VENTE». The «French must predominate» was necessary because, of course, you got Angryphones wiseasses who tried to circumvent the law by posting a French version in small prints.

He specifically asked about "posting an ad".

Why does the law not simply require that the French be the same?

[Berkut]

Even if it is not true (and honestly, I have no idea) there is certainly the perception that it is true. For example, I would never visit Quebec because of that perception - if I was visiting Canada, there are lots of places that seem just as nice where I won't have to run the risk of dealing with some spaz who is going to act like an ass because I don't speak French.

So you would specifically choose not to travel to a place because there is a "perception" that people might be rude or because there is some risk someone might be rude?  On that basis, how could you visit anyplace?  In my experience, people are capable of being a "spaz" and acting like an ass in any language.

Certainly languish is proof that English speakers are not immune.  

Wasn't my post rather clear that I was choosing to go somewhere else due to the fact that "somewhere else" does not share the same perception that there is THIS particular problem?

Sure, if Quebec had some awesomely great reason to visit that trumped this (compared to other options), then I would go - but I don't know that it does, so why deal with the problem if there is no good reason to do so?

All other things being equal, why choose the place with the perception that they are going to be asshole unless I speak, or pretend to try to speak, a language I do not speak?

I guess I might go if I got to travel enough that I went and saw the other places I wanted to see already, but since that is not the case...the odds of Quebec ever making it to the top of my destination list are considerably reduced.

[The Minsky Moment]

Indeed. Fortunately, «growing an economy» requires both Mom & Pop's where the need to learn English is nil and multinationals (Rio-Tinto-Alcan ; Cirque du Soleil ; Power Corporation) where the need is enormous.

A dangerous assumption.  Even very small businesses can get significant benefits from being able to interact with the broader market outside their immediate current clients and suppliers.  Of course English strictly isn't necessary to do this, but can be very helpful especially for a business located in North America.

[viper37]

Not everyone who objected to the financial and social impact of the language laws was a would-be imperialist.

not everyone, but most of them.

Imposing a whole level of added costs and niggling petty bureaucracy on doing business - such as having the police carefully measure your signs to ensure that the font on the french version was larger than the font on the English version (a requirement under Quebec law) was, IMHO, pure stupidity in an economy not otherwise doing so good, no?

If nearly all businesses of Toronto, not just a tiny part of the city but over 95% of them had signs in Chinese, you'd be among the first to complain.

The law as some stupidity, but no one ever measured the signs with a tape.

Back in the 1950s, Montreal was an english city.  You couldn't get a decent job if you spoke french.  All businesses, even those owned by French people had english names, heck even around here many businesses had english names.  "Fraser Mill", "Fraser Power Inc.", etc, etc.  You couldn't order anything from Sears if you didn't speak english, their catalog was printed only in english.  There's a famous text about it that I read in school, how one mother took the time to write in french, saying she couldn't write in english, to order a Montreal Canadians jersey shirt for her son, and they instead received a Maple Leafs one...  That kid was traumatized for life.

All because of imperialist anglos thinking like Neil, that English is the only language worth learning and others have to adapt to you, not the opposite.

Kinda like the old Ford saying "they can have their car in any color they want as long as it's black".


And with the language laws, that changed.  In a few years, Quebec became a truly French province.  We suddenly had French Speaking entrepreneurs.  We could get decent paying jobs where english wasn't mandatory anymore.  You could get instructions manual in French.  You could go to work and be spoken to in your own language.

We went maybe a bit too far, and way too much bureaucratic in some ways.  That I agree.  But on the principle, I disagree with you, it was a damn good idea.  And so be it with those who refused to accept this, to accept to treat French as equals.

Fact is, foreign businesses look on Quebec as being one of three key areas in Canada, and when deciding whether to use one or another, they weigh up all the factors pro and con; and the language laws are (believe it or not) a pretty big "con", since they affect nearly every aspect of business, from instructions on software to signs to internet sites to contracts to key employees educating their kids.

Well, see, to do business in Quebec, you have to do it in French, and yes, that annoys people.  And I understand that.  Laura Secord decided it was too much for them.  Financial Life and other insurance companies decided they couldn't cope with it.  And they left.  And they paid a dear price.  And most of them came back.  With a new name.  With a new attitude.

There are people who refused to do business with Israel, at some point, and even now, because they see it as a "Jewish State" and its frustrating to them.  The same can be said for Quebec, some people will not do business with us because it's a French State.  So be it.  I don't think we should all become english speaking and allow ourself to lose our culture just to please these people.

Sure, we miss out some opportunities.  But that's not the worst part of it, and as I said, if we reform our economy and become as dynamic as Ireland once was, we too will attrack foreigner, regardless of the language.

The choice of keeping the laws or going back to the 1950s is a good example of a false dichotomy. Allow English to be equal in size on signs, and who knows what horrors may follow!

Give them an inch, they take a foot.
If english was a minority language and French was dominant on the continent, there would be no need for such laws.  But we don't live in a ideal world.

[Malthus]

Certainly. There have been court cases of businessmen fined for not having French "predominate".

Moreover, it isn't really significant to my point whether the laws are enforced stringently or not, as business people doing due dilligence have to assume that they will obey the existing local laws, not flout them because they aren't strictly enforced - and plan for the costs of doing that. Which, in Quebec, always means printing up special "Quebec only" materials to conform to Quebec's bizzare language laws.

It doesn't seem that hard since every sizeable industry seem to be able to do it. It's an added cost sure. It's the choice we made.

I'm simply pointing out that this choice has had economic consequences - it has empoverished Quebec to the benefit, in part, of Ontario.

Really, out of self-interest I ought to encourage you guys to do more things like this. 

[Berkut]

Indeed. Fortunately, «growing an economy» requires both Mom & Pop's where the need to learn English is nil and multinationals (Rio-Tinto-Alcan ; Cirque du Soleil ; Power Corporation) where the need is enormous.

A dangerous assumption.  Even very small businesses can get significant benefits from being able to interact with the broader market outside their immediate current clients and suppliers.  Of course English strictly isn't necessary to do this, but can be very helpful especially for a business located in North America.

Indeed - in the age of the internet, being able to communicate effectively outside your insular world is very useful, even for the mom and pops.

[Valmy]

Wasn't my post rather clear that I was choosing to go somewhere else due to the fact that "somewhere else" does not share the same perception that there is THIS particular problem?

France has this perception and it certainly proved to be nonsense in my experience.

But, as you say, there are more compelling reasons to visit France than to visit Quebec.

[HVC]

France has this perception and it certainly proved to be nonsense in my experience.

But, as you say, there are more compelling reasons to visit France than to visit Quebec.

Except for paris, they are indeed dicks there.

[Berkut]

Wasn't my post rather clear that I was choosing to go somewhere else due to the fact that "somewhere else" does not share the same perception that there is THIS particular problem?

France has this perception and it certainly proved to be nonsense in my experience.

But, as you say, there are more compelling reasons to visit France than to visit Quebec.

Bingo.

And to be honest, France is low on my list of Euro destinations as well, for much the same reason. Although at least there are some rather unique things about France that would make me certainly visit it anyway if I had the time and funds.

And it isn't that it is a foreign language - Greece is actually rather high on my list (probably actually first). But then, everything I have heard about the parts of Greece I would like to visit has been very positive.

[Valmy]

Except for paris, they are indeed dicks there.

True but they are dicks even if you speak French better than Voltaire wrote it.

[Grey Fox]

Certainly. There have been court cases of businessmen fined for not having French "predominate".

Moreover, it isn't really significant to my point whether the laws are enforced stringently or not, as business people doing due dilligence have to assume that they will obey the existing local laws, not flout them because they aren't strictly enforced - and plan for the costs of doing that. Which, in Quebec, always means printing up special "Quebec only" materials to conform to Quebec's bizzare language laws.

It doesn't seem that hard since every sizeable industry seem to be able to do it. It's an added cost sure. It's the choice we made.

I'm simply pointing out that this choice has had economic consequences - it has empoverished Quebec to the benefit, in part, of Ontario.

Really, out of self-interest I ought to encourage you guys to do more things like this. 

Maybe as a whole Quebec was empoverished but all that wealth would have been in the hand of the English minority & that was inacceptable. Every choice & every law since the Revolution Tranquille have been made with the "le Quebec au Québécois" mantra.

Berkut, There's no real reason for you to come to Quebec anyway, it looks alot like Upstate New York.
Also, I speak french & visiting France isn't high on my list too.

[Ed Anger]

I found the real French rather delightful.

[ulmont]

So it would be illegal then for me to post an ad in strictly English, for example? A completely private advertisement?

One of the Atlanta suburbs, Snellville if I remember correctly, had a ban on any Spanish-only signage and required that the English text be larger than the Spanish text on any signs.  Looks exactly like the Quebec thing.

[Berkut]

So it would be illegal then for me to post an ad in strictly English, for example? A completely private advertisement?

One of the Atlanta suburbs, Snellville if I remember correctly, had a ban on any Spanish-only signage and required that the English text be larger than the Spanish text on any signs.  Looks exactly like the Quebec thing.

That is stupid and xenophobic as well, although at least there you are only be stupid and xenophobic towards the minority in your country. It has its own economic consequences, although probably not as severe as if some part of LA decided that you MUST post everything in Spanish.

Does the Quebec law mandate that all signs be in both French and English, or is all-French ok?