British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[BuddhaRhubarb]

Nothing. a great many kids in Canada (all over the country do what we call "French Immersion" Learning everything at school En Francaise. My Niece is almost fluent in both languages yet is not much of a student. She does average in terms of grades, but has a leg up bilingually.

That's great when it is a matter of choice.

As in many other matters, *choice* and *consent* is what seperates out an experience that is wonderful and positive from one that is seen as oppressive and negative.

Just turn it around, and ask why it isn't okay to require all kids in Quebec to take "English Immersion".

who said anything about "all kids" in whatever region. Personally I'd say these few things

as to Zoupa's point about refugees etc... I think if you are trying to emigrate to Quebec to get out of some warzone or plague/famine ridden country, you don't care what language you may or may not ( in Vancouver a great many immigrants speak neither fluent English or French and they get by relatively fine, in and out of school somehow) have to learn


Learning a language is easier than living life in fear of whatever totalitarian crap they were putting up with elsewhere.

I think Mal has a point that Bi-bilingualism (like EVERY BINARY SYSTEM)  has failed to live up to it's Utopian ideal. But well hell that's how it goes with Utopias, They are just dreams. No such thing in reality, and there never will be. Dystopias mind you. Does that mean we should just scrap it? How about people adjusting their expectations a bit.

If I go to Quebec for any reason, I always make an effort to Speak french (as poorly as I do)... In Mtl. It's not an issue, people just smile and ask you questions in unaccented English. Actually the last time I was in Montreal for any length of time, almost no one spoke more than a few words of French to me. It's like they could tell by mt inexpensive clothing and lack of cigarette that I was anglo :p

I don't see language as an issue in Canada anymore. Biggest strawman in the Land.

fucking dumbass quoting system. that's the real problem.

[Zoupa]

My overal view of the situation is as follows:

- Official bilingualism was an attempt, noble in its inception but doomed to failure, to create a society which saw itself as neither "English" nor "French" in culture and history, but purely "Canadian".

- A product of 1960s utopian nationalist thinking, which has been overtaken by two significant events:

1. The strengthening of Quebec ethno-nationalism, daunted not at all by the attractions of 'Canadian bilingualism'; and

2. The relative decline of English as an *ethnicity* in the rest of Canada, in favour of multi-culturalism (also vaguely and confusingly embraced by the federal gov't, which somewhat schitzophrenically embraces both multi-culturalism and bilingualsim, even though the two are, quite obviously, incompatible). The difference between the two is that multi-culturalism is more a description of the reality, as a single glance on the Toronto subway would reveal. The type of society envisioned by "official bilingualism" exists no-where except as a hopeful dream.

- In support of their ethno-nationalist project, Quebec politicians of all stripes have embraced a series of restrictive language laws that have had a punitive effect on the English minority living in their province. This is directly contrary to both "official bilingualism" and "multi-culturalism".

You could also take a glance at the Montreal metro. It's just as multi-ethnic.

You've yet to demonstrate how the language laws are punitive.

The anglophone minority has a whole network of publicly funded schools. They have several newspapers in english only. Local television and radio networks in english only. Two universities in english in Montreal alone. All government forms are also available in english. All government services are available in english.

They can live their whole lives without speaking a lick of french. So can their children. You'd be amazed how many of them do not speak a word of french. My anglo girlfriend didn't speak A WORD of french until she wanted to get into a french university and took summer classes. She was 22 at the time, she had lived her whole life in Quebec.

Can you explain to me how our punitive laws punished her? ( )

[viper37]

It's not news anywhere.

there's like 4 or 5 articles on Cyberpresse on the same subject and a thread in every single Quebec forum that's about politics...

[viper37]

Another beautiful example of them being so over-sensitive, that even now that the festivities for the 250th anniversary of the battle of the Plaines d'Abraham have been replaced by some inoffensive "parole mill" in which people from both sides, both languages, and from both spectrums of Quebec's national debate, are there to read texts and poetry - which is pretty innocuous in itself - Quebec City's mayor decided to suddenly boycott the event because he publicly branded the bloke who leads the Mouvement de Résistance du Québec, who said he'd be present as invited guest as head of a small but vocal separatist militant group, as a "violent separatist radical". Okey, the guy and his group are very vehement and outspoken about independence, I agree. But it doesn't take to be Einstein to see that violence has never been part of their rethoric. However, since they are very outspoken and aggressive about their beliefs they are now presented as "violent".

although I agree with your analysis, this is not the entire truth.

You conveniently forgot who was invited to the party.
You got Luck Mervill "Patriote de l'année", some dude whose favorite hobby is to participate in any kind of controversy he can find and instigate even more trouble (see the Villanueva case for his most recent work).  He's the one reading the FLQ manifesto.

You got Loco-Loccass, a rapper band whose best single hit is "Libérez nous des Libéraux" and, the last time there was "some inoffensive" event, where they invited the Liberal Party as a sign of friendship decided to humiliate the people present.  I don't like the Libs, but I can't blame them for not attending such a seperatist party.

Then you got a man who threatend to put fire to the tents and beat the people participating in the re-enactment of the battle of the Plains who is invited to read a text...

And among the politicians invited, you got all the seperatists leaders invited to read texts.

So, really, it is a seperatist party, and not only that, but it is a celebration of violence as a political tool.

Just imagine if Germany was to make a public reading of some Adolf Hitler's speech, made by a neo-nazi leader.  Just in the name of peace&friendship...

No sorry, I can't follow you on that one.
Quebecers are oversensitive, and the Brit' dude is mostly right in his complaint of our healthcare system, but really, that shitstorm you speak of is the results of the seperatist leader agreeing with the scare tacticts of their most "controversial" elements.
They used them to cancel the re-enactement of the battle, and they use them again to push their own agendas while keeping their hands cleans.  That's cowardice and hypocrisy to me.

[viper37]

But they want to keep canadian subsidies

that's what happens when you leave important things to lefties.

[viper37]

I don't think that most of Canada would decide to have a love of speaking French if taught it in schools...especially if the French instruction is rightfully seen as a project for the benefit of Quebec.

except for the odd Neil case where he hates everything that is not Neil , usually, learning another language will open yourself to that culture and you get a better understanding of it.

It's one of the reasons why many extremists in Quebec want absolutely nothing to do with bilinguism, they fear that we will lose our culture if we learn to appreciate another, especially the dominant anglo-saxon one.  Of course, that's bullshit, but we tend to listen way too much to these kind of people.

[viper37]

at least we flems will talk to you in Dutch, English, French and depending on what type of education they had passable german, spanish or italian and maybe some greek too. So stuff it. :p

You'll speak to us in French only once we made it absolutely pretty clear that we are neither Walloons or French

[Oexmelin]

You conveniently forgot who was invited to the party.
You got Luck Mervill "Patriote de l'année", some dude whose favorite hobby is to participate in any kind of controversy he can find and instigate even more trouble (see the Villanueva case for his most recent work).  He's the one reading the FLQ manifesto.

You got Loco-Loccass, a rapper band whose best single hit is "Libérez nous des Libéraux" and, the last time there was "some inoffensive" event, where they invited the Liberal Party as a sign of friendship decided to humiliate the people present.  I don't like the Libs, but I can't blame them for not attending such a seperatist party.

Then you got a man who threatend to put fire to the tents and beat the people participating in the re-enactment of the battle of the Plains who is invited to read a text...

And among the politicians invited, you got all the seperatists leaders invited to read texts.

So, really, it is a seperatist party, and not only that, but it is a celebration of violence as a political tool.

Just imagine if Germany was to make a public reading of some Adolf Hitler's speech, made by a neo-nazi leader.  Just in the name of peace&friendship...

No sorry, I can't follow you on that one.

You are really turning yourself into a typical talk radio follower.

Weren't you defending the reenactment a while back ? Why can't this - a battle ! - be read as a celebration of violence as a political tool ? They're also going to read, IIRC, excerpts from Lord Durham's report and from Mordecai Richler. Would this be a celebration of assimilation ? A celebration of detestation ?

There certainly is a measure of hypocrisy in the event: one can't on the one hand brush aside the supporters of the reenactment who claimed that this was «part of our history» while using the same argument to support the reading of the manifesto. I am torn because on the one hand, I think if Loco Locass wanted to do an inclusive event, they should have let Brigitte Haentjens, a more neutral figure, take more of the spotlight (threatening the media exposure in so doing) to invite people from all sides of the spectrum. On the other hand, I think people should, as Drakken said, «grow a spine» and understand that such events will always be political on some level, and as such, I think some prominent Liberals should have attended and appropriated a measure of the event. I think Loco Locass should not necessarily have expected a show of love from the Liberals, rather than whine. Confrontation is good and needs to be adressed firmly. In acting as the Liberals did, they are hoping to enact a self-fulfilling prophecy: decry the event as a separatist love-fest and hope that, in so doing, it becomes a separatist love-fest. I am not convinced it was intended to be that in the first place, but now the spotlight is all over separatist participants.

I do think the reading of the manifesto has more than its place, as one of the strongest moment of political history in Quebec. I have been to readings of the Wannsee protocols (chilling) and other documents much worse than the FLQ manifesto. You are right that context gives meaning. While Luke Mervill is certainly a public figure, one can't argue his political position over the issue of sovereignty is *that* prominent. His positions on other issues, racism notably, yes. But sovereignty ? 

[viper37]

I had never heard of this story before reading it on languish, and I watch the news and read the papers daily.

I don't even think viper cares. I'm sure he posted it for the humour.

mostly for the humor, not to start a 16 page thread on bilinguism.  I think the guy exagerated some of the facts, but he's right on the core of the subject: our health care sucks. 
And it sucks even more for foreigners, or non-insured citizens (those who spend too much time abroad).

[viper37]

You are really turning yourself into a typical talk radio follower.

I listen to the Club des Ex and RDI news time every day, but that's on tv.  Does it count?
Ah, I forgot.  I also read André Pratte, wich you don't like at all.
Le Devoir is just not my bag, sorry to disapoint.

Weren't you defending the reenactment a while back ? Why can't this - a battle ! - be read as a celebration of violence as a political tool ? They're also going to read, IIRC, excerpts from Lord Durham's report and from Mordecai Richler. Would this be a celebration of assimilation ? A celebration of detestation ?

If Simon Durivage was the one reading the FLQ manifesto, there'd be no trouble at all, and Sam Hamad would probably have been there.

Having your history teacher read some part of Mein Kampf in a class is one thing, having your local neo-nazi read it is another.

There certainly is a measure of hypocrisy in the event: one can't on the one hand brush aside the supporters of the reenactment who claimed that this was «part of our history» while using the same argument to support the reading of the manifesto.

As I said, it's the crowd the problem, and the way they are going to do it.  No way with these people that it's going to be a "neutral reading to commemorate history".  If it was, these people wouldn't be there.

I am torn because on the one hand, I think if Loco Locass wanted to do an inclusive event, they should have let Brigitte Haentjens, a more neutral figure, take more of the spotlight (threatening the media exposure in so doing) to invite people from all sides of the spectrum. On the other hand, I think people should, as Drakken said, «grow a spine» and understand that such events will always be political on some level, and as such, I think some prominent Liberals should have attended and appropriated a measure of the event. I think Loco Locass should not necessarily have expected a show of love from the Liberals, rather than whine. Confrontation is good and needs to be adressed firmly. In acting as the Liberals did, they are hoping to enact a self-fulfilling prophecy: decry the event as a separatist love-fest and hope that, in so doing, it becomes a separatist love-fest. I am not convinced it was intended to be that in the first place, but now the spotlight is all over separatist participants.

as I said, the last time they were present at such an event, Loco-Locass sang "Libérez nous des Libéraux" and made obscene gesture at Lyne Beauchamp and Denis Coderre.
I've no love for them, but really, you can't expect them to be fooled twice.

I do think the reading of the manifesto has more than its place, as one of the strongest moment of political history in Quebec. I have been to readings of the Wannsee protocols (chilling) and other documents much worse than the FLQ manifesto. You are right that context gives meaning. While Luke Mervill is certainly a public figure, one can't argue his political position over the issue of sovereignty is *that* prominent. His positions on other issues, racism notably, yes. But sovereignty ?

He was named "Patriote de l'année" and he is known for inflamatory speech on various subjects, racims is one, his silly communists ideas (Québec Solidaire) are another.  And Bourgeoys is gonna be there, the one who had the re-enactment, cancelled, side by side with Pauline Marois and Gilles Duceppe.

You may totally dislike André Pratte, but he had a good point:  what would René Lévesque had done at such an event?  He was after all pretty pissed off when the PQ membership applauded Larose, an ex-FLQ member.

As I said, it's not the manifesto in itself, it's the people attending the event.  I read Mein Kampf.  It didn't make a racist out of me.  I read the FLQ manifesto, it didn't make a terrorist or a leftist of me (can't decide wich is worst ).  But having people cheering for the reading of such a text and all it symbolizes?  Hmm... not too sure I have to be lenient and open minded on this one.

[viper37]

Well, we know that, since he didn't speak English. Any college-educated person living today (not just in Canada - where English is an official language - but pretty much anywhere in the world), especially in a profession like medicine, which relies on peer review and being up-to-date with international developments, who doesn't have at least a rudimentary knowledge of English must be an idiot.

most college level education don't require to learn english.
Even in medicine, unless you get specialized, you don't have that much stuff to read in english as far as I'm told.
I studied finance, everything from year 2 was in english.  By comparison, those studying in accounting had 99% of their reading material in french.
Although technically, an accountant must be certified bilingual to get his university degree, all his reading is done in french and all his exams are in french.

[Oexmelin]

I listen to the Club des Ex and RDI news time every day, but that's on tv.  Does it count?
Ah, I forgot.  I also read André Pratte, wich you don't like at all.
Le Devoir is just not my bag, sorry to disapoint.

It's just that your talking points are taken from cue... André Pratt writes poorly, I disagree with him most often, but he is much more tolerable (less of a demagogue) than your usual J.-J. Samson, Lagacé, etc.

If Simon Durivage was the one reading the FLQ manifesto, there'd be no trouble at all, and Sam Hamad would probably have been there.

Honnestly, I doubt it. But you are right that it would have made the reading less contentious. No need, once again, to use the Nazi scarecrow...

As I said, it's the crowd the problem, and the way they are going to do it.  No way with these people that it's going to be a "neutral reading to commemorate history".  If it was, these people wouldn't be there.

How can you know ? It has not happened yet. Bourgeoys will show up with his 4-5 friends and that will be it. Just like the idiots who showed up at the Lake of Stew concert at the Saint-Jean were drowned by the crowd. I think, on its merits, this is a great idea. I will wait to see if it is such a one-sided affair. And if it is a one-sided affair, I will wait to see if it is this foretold celebration of violence. Which I heavily doubt, seeing as how all the past fear-mongering has ammounted to nothing. For the last 30 years.

He was named "Patriote de l'année" and he is known for inflamatory speech on various subjects, racims is one, his silly communists ideas (Québec Solidaire) are another.

... and the links of such to the FLQ are inexistant, and the links of said speech with any public support to sovereignty are tenuous at best. You might dislike his ideas on racism (and for the benefits of non-Quebec readers who might still be reading this, Luck Mervill is of Haitian ancestry and has been a vocal defender of the black community) but you are really reaching with this one.

[viper37]

It turns people into me.

That could be a problem, I'll admit.  One Neil is enough in the entire country.

[viper37]

It would seem to me to be pretty self-evident that the apparant insistance of the French-speaking population of Canada that the country as a whole be bi-lingual English/French but that Quebec itself be uni-lingual French is inherently unfair and rather hypocritical.

That's not exactly how it is, and the demand for a bilingual Canada has historical roots that goes way, way before the 1960s and 70s.

And at first, it was mostly a religious issue, being afforded equal treatment under the law for Catholics and Protestants.  Back then, being Catholic meant being French, and being English meant being Protestant, so that was really the same issue.  See the Quebec Act of 1774 to understand the beginning of the 'great divide' between english&french of this country.

[viper37]

How can you know ? It has not happened yet.

you don't put a drug addict in a situation where they can do drugs.  Simple as that.  You put a drug addict at a party where's there's a lot of cocaine&mush, there's chances he'll do something. 

It hasn't happenned yet and it may not happen, but the risk is high, and these are the same people who threaten to use violence, with the complicity of the PQ & Bloc, to have a wonderful event cancelled.  You don't invite such people and then pretend it's neutral and there's nothing to it.

Bourgeoys will show up with his 4-5 friends and that will be it. Just like the idiots who showed up at the Lake of Stew concert at the Saint-Jean were drowned by the crowd.

Wich was different and was totally non political.

I think, on its merits, this is a great idea. I will wait to see if it is such a one-sided affair. And if it is a one-sided affair, I will wait to see if it is this foretold celebration of violence.

if it wasn't such a subjective subject, I'd bet you a bear, but we're bound to have 2 different understanding of the post-facto situation

... and the links of such to the FLQ are inexistant, and the links of said speech with any public support to sovereignty are tenuous at best. You might dislike his ideas on racism (and for the benefits of non-Quebec readers who might still be reading this, Luck Mervill is of Haitian ancestry and has been a vocal defender of the black community) but you are really reaching with this one.

wait and see.
Luck Merville has ties with Québec Solidaire, wich is enough to make him a suspect and on top of that, he likes to provoke to attract attention, and he's much more than a simple defender of the black community.  He's styles himself much more of Malcom X than Martin Luther King.